Ed_Haynes

This is the slippery area, betwen those awards of the erstshile "royal" house -- "pretender awards" -- as opposed to official State awards. Nasty terrain, this.

Badge #2 went, presumably, to Choibalsan.

The two together.

So, I would guess the "a" badge is a prototype... Or do I have to check it is SN 1 ?

Cheers.

Ch.

Sukhbaatar #1 was Comrade Stalin's.

Hey Ed, with Mongolian orders, I'm far far far, very far, from my areas of comfort, here!!!!!

Cheers.

Ch.

But your guesses are GOOD and focus our investigations!

Yes, and most of what came from the recent ANS auction (items acquired in Europe in the late-1920s and early-1930s) were such late copies. Is it possible -- absent provenance -- to distinguish real awarded KuK (or "K-K"?) specimens from post-1918 badges?

While a chancellor's office may have still continued to exist (theoretically, it also does for the Order of the Indian Empire, which died in 1947, though members of the order still live), and jewelers may yet desire maximum profits, what are "legitmate" and what are "fantasy" awards (and badges)? The "King" of Egypt still gives out his "royal" orders, if you have enough money in your bank account. But there are States are there are Pertenders?

The Austro-Hungarian awards are, I think, a special problem area? And especially dangerous for they are so beautiful.

Good questions, Christophe. Thanks.

Ed,

Intriguing... I'm totally zero in Mongolian orders, but 3 ideas :

1. Is there a "big" difference of period / time between them ?

Perhaps. Maybe a year or so for these two Sukhbaatar badges shown. The standard badge ("b") is numbered <10 (that is all I can say for now).

2. Have some of these orders been made in different mints ?

So far as we know, now, all were made in the USSR by МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР but are not so marked.

3. Have some of them been made outside Mongolia (Soviet Union) ? (which is maybe the case of all of them... but I am totally zero in this field...)

Just 3 ideas...

Cheers.

Ch.

Third question answered above, I think.

We MUST all free to guess outside our areas of comfort, otherwise how do we learn?

Yes, I am being cruel here . . .

And . . . Himself . . . ???

And look at the rays.

OK . . . in a (probably futile) effort to "spice things up" here, I present two Sukhbaatar Order badges (both screwback).

What do you see?

More to come as answers appear (or not).

Good and educational work here, comrades!

Now . . . drum roll . . .

Interesting. These are the serial numbers I received from a reliable source in Ulanbaatar. shall reconfirm. And they are, of course, awards to a Mongolian, not to some foreigner.

It does call into question some of these attributed serial numbers.

When we have the rolls, things will clairify and some revisions can be made.

Fascinating! I love puzzles.

Size??

Let me look and ponder . . . .

There are certainly a lot of inter-war and post-WWII "collectors' copies" made by the enterprising jewelers of Vienna. Provenance. Provenance. Provenance.

Ohhh.

A nice one. Where is the remainder of the group now???

We need to learn so much more . . .

And . . . .

Next page.

2-

And inside the back cover.

Next

Next page

But a couple of recently-in award booklets speak to thsi process. Neither has a photograph.

1-

Among the things we don't quite understand about the MPR awards system is the award of duplicate/replacement awards. So far as I (or we?) know, there isn't the Soviet-style duplicate "Д" marking custom.

And the interior, awarded 21 May 1961, apparently for that year's spartikad (as the document is pre-printed).