Ed_Haynes

Scan of case lid.

A few more images, to try to breathe some life into PRC things.

The case exterior.

Another reason for not having the bar to the 14 Star could be simply that he did'nt bother to apply for it after the war.

True, Leigh. I only know of maybe half a dozen 1914 Star groups to Indians that have the clasp, and know of three times that many groups to guys who were clasp-qualified but never got or wore it. Kind of like the fate of WWI death plaques to Indian regiments, where many were used as drink coasters in the (British) officers' mess, as it was too much trouble to send them to the families?

How do I access the 1914 Medal roll?

It is in the National Archives (nee Public Record Office) at Kew, just out of London. Not sure when I'll be doing research in London next, or I'd offer. With some records on-line (and many collectors thinking everything is or should be!) many of the reliable researchers I have used have moved on to other things (including the grave), as everyone now seems to think research should be on-line, easy, or free.

There is, by the way, an OUTSIDE chance that he may have service records at the PRO (sorry, I slipped and used the old name) in the WO 364 series (while they were HEAVILY damaged in WWII German bombing). The fact that the genealogist mob exists has resulted, I think, in some extensive information on these being placed online (they matter, we don't, and where the two communities overlap, we benefit). The PRO website -- http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.htm -- will lead you to this, though all but browsing costs (as you have discovered).

Checking their site: By the end of 2008, they plan to have "A" and "B" online (hope they don't pitch the originals after that!). They will, however, be privitizing these through ancestry.co.uk, so the news may not be so bleedin' good. See

http://content.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=L...id=0%3a7935%3a0

to play, but you gotta pay them MONEY.

More fun to do research in Kew anyway, in the real records, though there's no nice pub nearby.

OK, Doc (and sorry never to have answered off-line). Thanks for these, as they may provide a tutorial and practice in reading MICs. I must admit to being a novice (as all the Indian ones were pitched out, they are on scant interest to me).

However . . .

You have a flock of R. Coopers here, but only one your boy. There were, after all, 99 "R. Cooper"s killed in the Great War (per CWGC website -- http://www.cwgc.org/ .) The key will be his service number.

And what you show as "Page 1" is his (post #14). The other "pages" are other people, though some of them very interesting ones.

T-22885 Driver Robert Cooper entered a theatre of war as an Army Service Corps transport driver on 14 August 1914. While the theatre is not specified, it was, of course, France. He was in at the beginning as part of the 1st Railway Supply Depot. However, as there is no annotation of a clasp (as there is for post 16, for example), he must never have driven close enough to the action to be considered "under fire". It wasn't easy, even with fast-moving fronts, for ASC types to get the clasp. And not all 1914 Star recipients earned the clasp, though may felt they deserved it and later added it.

He was alao awarded a British War Medal and a Victory Medal (which are somewhere out there awaiting reunification!) and finally made it to Acting Substantative Sergeant by war's end.

Checking the medal rolls (they give the roll and page number) might tell you more. The 1914 Star roll might be especially interesting, as he is on page 1 of the ASC/17 roll.

Just as a footnote, these medals were sent out to him on 27 August 1920, just over six years since he went into the war.

Well put, Rick.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of our China-based forum members??

Stupid seller!!

Well, if someone buys this, I'd not call the seller "stupid". But, at least for now, no one has bid on this abomination. And yet the seller has a 99.2% positive rating. And their other "Chinese" awards are of equally high quality. While the collecting and study of other areas has taken off, scum such as this fellow and the dreck he markets mayl kill, forever, the collecting of Chinese ODM. Hope they're happy (though this particular fellow is mostly jewelry, it seems) and, with 4126 feedbacks and a "Power Seller", I bet he is happy.

I'd agree, Leigh. Statistically, historically, and phaleristically, that's about all that makes sense. Makes a nice little group nicer!

Oh, PS, just so you can see it -- UNGOMAP on this medal:

Is the black stripe inked-on?

last year (2006) a few silver "CONGO" bars were being offered on ebay, these I take to be repros?

That'd be my guess, Kevin! "Repro"? Nice word.

Yes, and I forgot to mention that UK forces served in NONE of the UN missions that qualified for this medal, with or without clasp.

Yeah, Ireland has been one of the most active contributors to UN peacekeeping, in part because they have been viewed as inoffensive and fair by the various contending parties. See who serves the most, see who serves the least, and you learn something important about the world.

Hallo Ed

If I remenber correctly UNTSO was reserved exclusively for Officers with regards the Irish.

Kevin in Deva

Not sure, the UN site only gives raw numbers for each country (and increasingly spotty numbers as one goes back in time).

I can only give reliable figures on Indian UN service.

I'd agree with Ulsterman. I think many are getting confused by the plastic covering that has badly discolored.

Since there is so much confusion over the ONUC medal (and, being ONUC, it deserves this confusion), I put up http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=17262.

Though, remember, please, that our hypothetical Irishman could have served in UNTSO, UNOGIL, ONUC, or UNGOMAP.

The second ribbon.

I don't seem to have one loose. Here's a group to 1097408 Sweeper Asa Ram, Armoured Corps (Indian Army); though the group has been "dipped" and his Videsh Seva Medal has been rather "chewed", it is still a nice group.

In other threads, there has been considerable discussion of the United Nations' medal for service in the Operation des Nations Units au Congo (ONUC). ONUC conducted some fairly active and ugly "peacekeeping" in the Congo, 1960-64.

ONUC was established by S/RES/143 (1960) of 14 July 1960. The ?CONGO? bar was authorized in July 1960; the revised ribbon was approved in 1963.

Countries providing troops to ONUC included Argentina, Austria, Brazil, Burma (now Myanmar), Canada, Ceylon (now Sri Lanka), Congo, Denmark, Ecuador, Ethiopia, Ghana, Greece, Guinea, India, Indonesia, Iran, Ireland, Italy, Liberia, Malaya, the Federation of Mali (now Mali and Senegal), Morocco, the Netherlands, Nigeria, Norway, Pakistan, the Philippines, Sierra Leone, Sudan, Sweden, Tunisia, the United Arab Republic (later Egypt and Syria), and (former) Yugoslavia.

The first ribbon and clasp.

Remember, please, that the same medal and ribbon combination was also used for UNTSO (1948-67) and UNOGIL (1958) as well as the first ONUC ribbon (1960-64, with clasp) and for UNGOMAP (1988-90, with clasp). The intent was that this medal would be THE peacepeeping medal and ribbon for the UN, while the Korea medal would be the UN medal for places where people got shot. This overly simple plan never stood up, of course. Someday, I hope someone looks at the relevant UN records and tells the tale.

Irish troops served in all four: UNTSO, UNOGIL, ONUC, and UNGOMAP.

For reliable information on UN medals, see http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/medals/ although it does not (strangely) include UNOGIL. Megan's site -- http://www.medals.org.uk/united-nations/un...s--ribbons1.htm -- does.

For more information on peackeeeping operations, see http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/index.asp.

Lovely! (But it does need a category move.)

And . . .

It's a shame that these pieces of history are treated so badly!!

Doc

Maybe, Mike. But at least they are "in place" and have had a better life than their "cousins" in Moscow.

And the Lenin in front ot the Ulanbaatar Hotel.

Just one detail. Jan has some nice professional shots of these.

In many ways, the outside is more interesting than the inside.

Lenin. And, today, the roof leaks.