Ed_Haynes

Lovely information and images on this thread (as elsewhere). Thanks, all!

For that piece of sXXt, the starting price of DM 4000,- (in 1974!) is exorbitant high .

Graf Klenau did some dubious stuff, for sure. But I bet someone bought it.

But when would a "Sammler" find the "real thing"? Like those tin-can VC copies that infest e$cam?

Back on topic, I was TOLD that most of his Soviet stuff was good, except the major exceptions like the K3rd pentagonal acid-trip.

But a DM 200 Red Star! Compares to:

-- Bavaria, Medaille f?r die Niederschlagung des Pf?lzer Aufstandes, 1849

-- Brazil, O Southern Cross, officer

-- Germany, Visit of Kaiser Wilhelm II to Turkey, 1899

-- Frankfurt, 15 Years Service Cross

-- Hannover, Waterloo Medal

-- Indonesia, Gerilya Order, 1st class set

-- Italy, Silver Bravery Medal, 1849

-- Meck-Schwerin, Kriegsdenkm?nze, 1848-49

etc.

And the text. Note: "Sammlerst?ck"!

Dear Ed,

that's a joke - or a fake made out of scratch .

That's an original chain & badge of the Order of the Golden Fleece: http://www.khm.at/system2E.html?/staticE/page476.html .

Even the price for the gold-content - the chain is made out of massive gold! - would have exceeded at that time USD 2600,- .

Besides of that aspect, an original "Chained Fleece" is one of the rarest and most precious orders in the world. If you would put the item of the "Kunsthistorische Museum" (see link above) to an auction at Sotheby's, the hammer price will be far beyond USD 1.000,000,-.

The (Burgundian-Austrian) "Order of the Golden Fleece" is the most supreme (monarchistic) award of the Christian-Catholic World - still .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Golden_Fleece

Best regards

Christian

While it is , the image of the fleece.

Famous, I have never heard of that before does any one have a pic

Some place, I have an image of the Klenau-special K3rd on pentagonal suspension. They were around in the mid-1970s, I know, and 100% Klenau-made. I remember Dr. Kleitmann pointing one out to me at my first OMSA convention -- did I just date myself? -- and laughing that someone would probably buy such rubbish.

Very inspiring, very difficult (for me at least).

Dear Ed,

many thanks for the list .

The DM ("Deutsche Mark") is rather exactly 50 % of the recent EURO. So, if you divide the Graf-Klenau-prices through 2 and take the result x 1.3, then you have the prices in USD at the recent USD/EUR-exchange-rate.

Even for mere starting prices, it seems to me far too "moderate" concerning the higher rating awards for the 1970s. Might be, that all the higher end items of Graf Klenau had been well made copies - did the forgers start so early ?

Best regards

Christian

True, true, Christian. My thoughts too.

BUT, the DM 3000 starting price (the Lenin) can be compared to the starting prices in the same auction for:

-- Baden, Z Lion, grand cross set - DM 3200

-- Bavaria, House Order of St. H, grand cross breast star - DM 2500

-- Bavaria, Military M-J Order, grand cross breast star - DM 2500

-- Hesse-Darmstadt, Ludwig Order, collar - DM 3000

-- Austria, Golden Fleece, chain and badge - DM 4000

A better context?

And some more common, fixed-price, stuff. From the September 1970 Spink Numismatic Circular.

Remember: These are 1970 ?s. The ?8 for the Liberation of Warsaw (#10825) compares to items in the same list:

-- A GV MM to 29th Canadian Infantry

-- A Sutlej for Aliwal (OK, it was ?8/10/-)

-- An IGS 54 "Persia"

-- A China 1857 "Taku Forts" and "Pekin"

Also remember that, taking into account inflation and all, ?8 in 1970 is now about ?149.38 (2005 figures, based on average earnings -- there are MANY ways to play this game -- see http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/ukcompare/ for more details).

Well, here are some items. From the 90th Graf Klenau auction, 23 March 1974.

Remember:

1- This is an auction. These are estimated starting prices. I have mislaid the "prices realised" sheet.

2- The prioces are in DM (remember them), 1974 DM.

3- The authenticity of some items is dubious. Possible to get here (only), mounted in a group, the famous super-rare Klenau-special fantasy Kutuzov 3rd class on pentagonal suspension. (Item 3813.)

Chris, you dog.

Once again, you may find that the web is not the best place to do research. What you seek will likely be found only by using books, and books in Turkish and , maybe, German. A good research library remains the starting place for any serious research, and yes it is hard work; this is despite the fact that the "Wikipedia Generation" wants to find it all "on the web" and to expend little effort in doing so.

To get a rough idea, you may want to glance at the catalogue and results from the last (16 November 2006) FJP auction -- http://www.fjpauctions.com/ -- though, in these days, no one can say how these results from happier days will relate to what, if anything, will happen in the future. Looking at results from a good auction house like FJP will be a better guide to reality than e$cam.

Good on ya' Rick! Keep on truckin'!

Maybe , maybe not. But in case you have lost the link to the delightful, medal-bedecked national anthem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8fMWtpwZEM

Or, see: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16841992/site/newsweek/

Collecting: A Mix-Up on Medals

Newsweek

Feb. 5, 2007 issue - In December, the Stolen Valor Act made it a crime to buy, sell, mail, import or export any military decoration approved by Congress. But the bill?intended to stop people from impersonating decorated vets?has such vague wording that medal collectors and auction houses are scrambling to find out if they're within the law. The legislation calls for a one-year maximum sentence and a fine of up to $100,000 for improper use of the Distinguished Service Medals, including the Medal of Honor, Silver Star and Purple Heart. But critics say it's drawn so broadly that active-duty soldiers can't mail home their own medals. Online auction sites such as eBay have already begun to cancel bidding on Purple Hearts and other decorations, regardless of whether the medals date back decades or longer. (Collectors of Civil War memorabilia could be affected.) Manions International, an auction house devoted to militaria, has yanked all American medals from its listings. And Jeff Floyd, the largest auctioneer of orders and medals from around the world, canceled his company's February round of auctions as he takes a "wait and see" approach.

The bill's sponsor, Sen. Kent Conrad, has said its intent is to impede only impostors, not collectors, and a legal group that examined the law says collectors appear to be safe. But enthusiasts worry that an outlaw market may emerge. "The law will force the collectors, archivists and historians to go underground," says retired Capt. Dean Veremakis, USNR, who serves as the president of the Orders & Medals Society of America.

?Peter Suciu

? 2007 Newsweek, Inc.

Hi Ed,

Yep, I have several additions concerning his service (about those PAPs and other things). I'll do it this evening after I'll be back home from my job.

Thanks!

Wizardry. Yep, wizardry.

Thanks, Rick!

Much to know.

Congratulations, mate. Good to see the baby safely delivered.

Any chance of finding one at a Garaj sale?

Somehow, I knew Michael wouldn't let us down -- I was waiting for that one.

Could it be, that due to the lack of a ribbon, some enterprising soul made one to display with the medal? If it had been produced and awarded, i suppose a regular qaulity ribbon would have been used ?

Actually, just an adaptation of the plasticised ribbon used for ribbon bars. As close as we'll ever get to whatever the original notification intended.

Thanks, Dave! Now to squint out a translation "with a little [= a lot of] help from my friends".

Wow! Wow!!

Dave, Gerd, THANKS!!!

Excellent group, thanks for sharing!

Thanks. Can you add anything to Rick's helpful summary of the documents we have in hand? Thanks (again) in advance.

So Edji , is the medal shown here a specimen or a copy? which brave soul is making them if it was the latter? any story behind getting this one?

Hi Jaganji,

This is one of the four that were manufactured at the Mint (according to the cover letter, and the Mint should be ashamed of the quality). This particular one was sent to the Ministry of Defence Medal Office. They kept it, but as it was non-military (Home Ministry production, remember), they didn't pay much attention to it and didn't know/remember what it was when discovered there by a friend. They "gifted" it to the United Service Institution of India, where it now resides on display in their medal collection.