Ed_Haynes

Interesting, though I wonder how many others serving in Iraq were sold "his" awards?

I know of at last one other who claims to own them.

Sure, I believed he'd have had more than one set made up, but I also smell the distinctive acrid odor of free-wheeling Iraqi capitalism.

Saddam medals on show in SA

16/01/2007 20:08 - (SA)

Johannesburg - A South African soldier's passion for military memorabilia led him to buy a set of medals belonging to executed Iraqi ruler Saddam Hussein - and they are now on display in Johannesburg.

"Medals tell the story of a country. The medals are very, very colourful and the medals and medallions tell a story," said William Endley, a retired national defence force colonel now working for a United States de-mining company.

"The Middle East has its own way of doing things... ours are much more formal."

Endley was speaking from southern Sudan, where he is clearing explosives and landmines so food aid can be transported, and teaching locals to do the same.

Wanted only to be a soldier

He started collecting military memorabilia at the age of 14 with items left to him by his grandfather.

"I was five years old when I decided to become a soldier. It's all I ever wanted to be."

In mid-2004 he was working in Iraq when he was offered a set of Saddam's awards by a former soldier who probably bought them from a Baghdad medals dealer. Endley immediately bought the collection.

"It was quite an expensive little exercise."

In January, he loaned Saddam's medals to the SA National Museum of Military History where they are on display to the public.

The collection is in excellent condition and includes sashes, medals and orders.

There is a photograph of Saddam, taken more than 20 years ago and wearing full dress uniform with his awards.

Museum staff say there has been great interest in the collection, particularly from military experts.

"It's quite a coup," said museum spokesman Allan Sinclair.

Museum acting director Sandi MacKenzie said it was unusual to get such a collection so soon after the original owner's death or fall from power.

"It normally takes us 100 years to get something like this."

Experts believe the collection is genuine.

MacKenzie explained that heads of state often have duplicate sets of medals and orders, for travelling.

MacKenzie said the first four medals Saddam was awarded were for gallantry and these he got before taking power. "He earned them as a soldier would earn them."

His awards include the rare Wisam al-Jadara or Order of Merit - awarded to only three or four Iraqi rulers - and for the 1948-'49 Palestinian War, for crushing the Kurdish rebellion, for the 1963 and 1968 revolutions, for co-operation with Syria, for peace in 1970, and for the 1973 war with Israel.

Pride of place

His Order of the Mother of Battles has a star and a sash in the red, black and white of the Iraqi flag with "Allah Akbar" (God is Great) on it, for the 1991 Gulf War against Kuwait and the US.

Saddam received the Order of the Two Rivers, which Endley described as the piece of which he was proudest.

This was a civilian and military award, and had republican and royal versions. Saddam wore a military version.

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/...2055801,00.html

Hello Ed!

The picture-links are ok, but I need a detailed picture in better quality, so:

Could you post me a scan of an MBE, front and rear side?

Do you have an silver-stamp/mark on it?

westfale

What variety? What era? Are you seeking a specific maker??

These are outside the sort of concerns that most British collectors express, so forgive my confusion.

I don't know of such a book either, though it would be a nice one to see and have. It would be difficult to research, however, and would likely require a close relative working for a good international airline so you could fly all over the world for free.

I am not quite sure what you are looking for, but see:

http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=3706 (first variety)

or

http://www.medals.org.uk/united-kingdom/un...-kingdom024.htm

I can put up MBE or OBE scans later, if you wish.

Recipients would be listed in the London Gazette and can be searched online when it is in a good mood:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveSearch.asp

Thanks for the translation and background, Tang Si!

And 2:

Awarded to Ihig Sharavdagva.

And the circumstances were "for active participation in the action of sending gifts to the Red Army, the Order of Polar Star is awarded."

Nice!!

So I've got a bit of a problem.

I just got this documented type 2, and I'm a little unsure as to what the actual award date is.

I've added the numbers in as best I can and as you can see there are two, 4 digit numbers and two dates. Which is which?

For comparison I've included Bob's Type 2 document which is exactly the same as mine, including the two signatures on page three.

Above the suspected serial numbers I've written "ser." These two numbers also correspond to the serial numbers on the awards (2082 and 1774) so that's a pretty safe bet.

The date remains a bit of a mystery though.

In my doc. there are three dates, two of which are the same. One date can be found on page one and page two, year 44, month 9 , day 6. That would make it 1954! The second date is on page three and that is (Year 34, month 4, day 3) this would seem the most likely date for the award, 1944. But what are the other dates and numbers for?

Help!

JC

ps. the bottom one is mine (1774), and more of Bobs doc. can be seen on the first/second page of this thread

OK, I have been able to get some information on these two documents. And very interesting they are!

1- (shown below)

Recipient is Delger Yadamsuren.

The award section reads "for the defense efforts of the country and for the brave fight in the battle of Khalhin Gol in year 28 (1939), the Order of Polar Star is awarded."

Ed,

That's a beautiful Medal!!! I'd be proud to have one in my collection. Congratulations!!!

Doc

Right-oh, Doc. The "other side" of Kalkhin Gol.

Thanks. That is what I had THOUGHT, but . . . ??

Those ribbons are LOVELY! Envy. Let me get up a translation (working from memory, without references):

Post 51:

1- Order of Two Rivers; Royal GSM; ??? (Air Force Gallantry?? ); WWII War Medal

2- WWII Victory; Rescue Medal; JORDAN Order of Renaissance; JORDAN Order of the Star

3- JORDAN Order of Independence (?); ???; SYRIA Order of Civil Merit; ???

4- ???; ???; UNITED KINGDOM WWII Victory; UNITED KINGDOM Elizabeth II Coronation

Need to think more on this lovely one.

Post 53:

Is upside-down. Stand on your head.

1- Gallantry Medal; Republic GSM; Palestine War '48

2- 1958 Revolution; Northern Rebellion; Revolution Ramadan 1963; Revolution 1968

Post 54:

Also upside-down.

Royal GSM; WWII War; WWII Victory; Coronation 1953

Post 55:

Northern Rebellion; Revolution Ramadan 1963; Revolution November 1963

NICE ones!

OK, I am confused. I may be stupid. (My wife has an opinion here.) Which is this? Just in, cased.

No problems. I respect your copyrights. Especially I guess, how many this group costs.

Thanks!

OK.Simply not all colleagues understand in English.

Sorry. I do not wish my materials stolen. Thanks. That is why I include a copyright notice.

OK. The prevailing consensus is now that these are good.

Ed,its fantastic group. If you will allow, I show her at a Russian-speaking forum.

Please do not. You may, of course, invite others to come here to see his medals. Thanks.

This should be moved to Southeast Asia (I no longer have that power).

Please show scan of reverse

Bob, do you want to see, specifically, USAF's, or any reverse of this type?

I think its a prerequisite for getting a medal ;-)

But if he isn't in the Indian Army List, he doesn't REALLY exist.

Can we assume he lived in India? Or could folks living in Britain also become I.A.R.O. ?

All the best

Chris

Let me check. As I have scant collecting/research interest in medals to natives (of the British Isles), I'm not 100% sure. Though I think he would likely have been "India-domiciled" and simply was allowed in as an emergency commission to fill out depleted officer ranks. But he would have been British, not Anglo-India (or, in the 19th-century phrase "Eurasian").

Finally . . . .

Lieutenant Charles Winton, IARO, commissioned 8 August 1917, promoted to lieutenant 8 August 1918 (IAL Jan 1919 p. 540 sl. 85).

At least he existed.

Hi,

He is in the LG on the 1 Feb 1919

2nd Lt Charles Winton, I.A.R.O. attd 1st Q.V.O. Corps of Guides, Infy., I.A.. the action was in Egypt.

The CO recomended Winton for the MC and Dhan Jit for the IOM, but he recieved the IDSM

OK, found him:

LG 31 Jan 1919, # 31158, p. 105

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

"2nd Lt. Charles Winton, I.A.R.O., attd. 1st Q.V.O. Corps of Guides, Infy., I.A. (EGYPT)

"For conspicuous gallantry and good leadership north of Arsup on 13th July, 1918. He was in command of a daylight raid on

two enemy strong points, and it was mainly due to his coolness and leadership that the whole affair was carried out so successfully. He personally killed two enemy with the bayonet."

And this'd be too late to be shown as a MC in the Jan 1919 IAL. Still strange he's not in that list. Yet he was just "attached" and not regimental, may have left by then. IAROs were throw-aways. I may have have to go line-by-line through some 100 pages of 9-point text to try to find him . . . .

Hi Ed,

The info was from the history of the corps of guides, so it seems he was serving WITH the guides (which I find confusing, as the Kukri bit is in there) .....Havildar Dhan Jit was awarded the IDSM for the same raid... in the book there was a group photo off officers from 1918, 3 of whom were unidentified, but I think one or two where wearing MC ribbons.

Unfortunately it was not possible to copy this picture as the reading room was worried about copyright.

As Alice said, "curiouser and curiouser". There is no "Dhan Jit" with a Guides IDSM before reorganization in 1922 (Chhina, p. 83). In fact, that seems a pretty garbled and incomplete name. There is a "Daljit Gurung) IDSM for the 2/5th GR in Mesopotamia (Chhina p. 158) but no other Gorkha or Garhwali IDSMs that are any closer to that name.

There is no "Winton" shown with the 5th GR in the Jan 1919 IAL (pp. 1617-22).

The January 1919 Indian Army List is the starting point here, but it is rendered harder to use due to the fact that the folks who reprinted it blundered and neglected to reprint the last pages of the index. Guess where "Winton" falls. In packing, unpacking, and reshelving my xeroxed insert seems to have fallen out (though not many Indians show in that alphabet range, and that's mostly what I seek).

He is not shown either serving with or attached to any of the three battalions of Queen Victoria's Own Corps of Guides (Frontier Force) (Lumsden's) (pp. 964-770-1). The Guides did have an infantry half-company of Gorkhas (which I had forgotten about -- poor little Gorkhas), so some of this story might ring true.

He is not shown as in possesion of a MC (p. 1943). When was it gazetted? He does not readily pop up in the online London Gazette of legendry crankiness.

He does not show with any War Services. No surpsise, as this covers pre-war service mainly.

If any of these had provided any information, there'd be some hope of finding him in the long sections listing British officers by rank, but as they are not arranged alphabetically but by date of commission/rank.

The Guides (Infantry -- after 1922 the 5/12th Frontier Force Regiment) did serve in India, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Palestine diuring WWI and one company went to France in 1914, attached to 57th Wilde's Rifles. (Gaylor, p. 171).

I don't think I have any wartime IALs (they are incredibly hard and expensive to find), but they are pretty spotty, with Jan 1919 being the benchmark. I can check them this summer in Delhi.

Sorry there's not better news and more puzzles than answers. Shall keep digging and looking.

If he is serving with Gorkhas, he was clearly on detachment from the Guides. Now that (most of) my reference books are unpacked and back on the shelves, let me have a look-see.

Ed,

The majority of the pre-Castro Cuban awards come through coin dealers in Cuba. They seem to funnel things through Germany and Miami. In the past 10 years, I've seen more Republic-era medals than in the previous 30 years.

Thanks, Jeff!