Ed_Haynes

Here follow a few NIBs -- well not actually "NIBs", more like "CWBs" ("Confirmed with Battushig"):

Y NIB 01 -- Mongolian Socialist Democratic Party Women's Association

F NIB 04 -- People's Court (Judge) - 60 years

Here follow a few NIBs -- well not actually "NIBs", more like "CWBs" ("Confirmed with Battushig"):

F NIB 03 -- Criminal Police Agency

After going through the sections in Battushig's book where he deals with awards for long service, I have been trying to sort these things out. After checking with him directly, here is a clarification:

In 1947, long service awards of existing orders were were allowed for the mlitary (= generals, officers, sergeants but NOT those below sergeant), including interior forces and border guards:

30 years - Sukhbaatar

25 years - RB Combat Valor

20 years - Combat Valor

15 years - Polar Star

10 Years - Medal Combat

In 1951 an extra decree allowed for long service awards for medical personel and for teachers:

For medical personnel in Gobi (G), Khangai (K), and Ulanbaatar (UB):

Sukhbaatar - 15 (G), 20 (K), 25 (UB)

RB Labor - 10 (G), 15 (K), 20 (UB)

Polar Star - 5 (G), 10 (K), 15 (UB)

Labor Medal - 3 (G), 5 (K), 10 (UB)

Gobi region = Umnugobi, Dornogobi, Dundgobi, Gobi-Altai, Sukhbaatar, Bayanhongor provinces.

Teachers (any place):

30 years - Sukhbaatar

20 Years - RB Labor

15 years - Polar Star

10 years - Medal Labor

In 1957, long service awards were extended to other professions (agriculture, engineering, railway) using the same regulations as the teachers.

In 1959, all awards for long service were abolished except for the military.

After 1959, for military ONLY:

15 years - Combat Valor

10 years - Medal Combat

RB of Combat Valor, Sukhbaatar, Hero of Mongolia could be awarded for "distinguished" service in exceptional cases.

Hope this helps.

In addition to the various posts on this site, you may want to glance at Dave's excellent overview of Soviet-era military research:

http://www.forvalor.com/s57.htm

Please do NOT post names of specific researchers to this thread. Contact Rich by PM with details, as I shall, with names.

An interesting general discussion would, however, be valuable . . . .

A really REALLY nice Gorkha group here, Paul!

Is the full group named (WM and ISM too)?

Let me see what else I can find for you.

Does the naming and number on that certificate look as "doctored" in person as it does in the scan? Don't tell me we are now getting faked "We Won" certificates?!

The Medal "We Won" has been discussed in http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10216&hl=we+won -- I don't have the power the merge the threads, sorry.

Come on, Paul. Think again. "Poo" is too kind for this . . . thing.

Hi Ed,

You can change Low number for Type A 37.1/M 20 -- Type 1.1 (screwback, number prefaced by ?No?) form 1984 to 1989

and Low from 316 to 112

Done. Nice one, Glenn! Thanks.

And one more update:

A 40.1/M 23.1 -- Type 1.1 (?Cross? obverse, silver painted) -- Low = 10/High = 76

Type 1.2 (?Cross? obverse, silver enameled, green leaves) -- Low = 13/High = ??

A 40.2/M 23.1 -- Type 1.3 (?Cross? obverse, silver enameled) -- Low = 249/High = 381

A 40.3/M 23.1 -- Type 2.1 (red obverse, silver numbered) -- Low = 1027/High = 1232

A 40.4/M 23.1 -- Type 2.2 (red obverse, silver unnumbered, escapee?)

Done, Glenn. Thanks!

Serial number and typology update:

M 21.1 -- Type 1.1.1 (Screwback, Uigur, numbered ?No.?) -- Low = 2/High = 985

A 38.1/M 21.1 -- Type 1.1.2 (Screwback, Uigur, SN without prefix, seperately soldered ring) -- Low = 1569/High = 11953

M 21.1 -- Type 1.1.3 (Screwback, Uigur, SN with "No" prefix above the SN) -- Low = 10663/High = 10668

M 21.1 -- Type 1.1.3 (Screwback, Uigur, SN without prefix, ring part of the medal) -- Low = 12001/High = 16525

A 38.2/M 21.2 -- Type 1.2.1 (Screwback, Cyrillic, impressed number) -- Low = 16785/High = 21645

M 21.2 -- Type 1.2.2 (Screwback, Cyrillic, engraved number) -- Low = ??/High = ??

A 38.3/M 21.2 -- Type 2.1 (Pinback, ribbon) -- Low = 23854/High = 36295

A 38.4/M 21.2 -- Type 2.2.1 (Pinback, enameled ribbon, silver) -- Low = 737/High = 4892

A 38.5 -- Type 2.2.2 (Pinback,pentagonal enameled ribbon, bronze, unnumbered)

A 38.6/M 21.2 -- Type 2.2.3 (Pinback, enameled ribbon, silvered bronze) -- Low = ???/High = 23750

A 38.6/M 21.2 -- Type 2.2.4 (Pinback, enameled ribbon, silvered bronze, unnumbered, unawarded escapee?)

Typology and serial number range update:

A 29/M 11.1 -- Type 1.1 (Screwback; flat reverse; 5 rivets) -- Low = 23/High = 840

A 29/M 11.1 -- Type 1.2 (Screwback; circular indentation at center on reverse; 2 rivets) -- Low = 1038/

High = 5873

A 30.1/M 11.2 -- Type 2.1 (Pinback, 4 rivets, silver) -- Low = 6036/High = 8722

A 30.2 -- Type 2.2 (pinback, bronze) -- Low = 7120/High = 9066

Type 2.3 (pinback bronze, not numbered, unawarded escapee?)

For the lonely crowd on this forum, the latest update:

A 37.1/M 20 -- Type 1.1 (screwback, number prefaced by ?No?) -- Low = 112/High = 1984

A 37.1/M 20 -- Type 1.2 (screwback) -- Low = 2146/High = 9263

M 20 -- Type 2.1 (pinback, silver, rotating-tool-engraved) -- Low = 10020/High = 16999

Type 2.2 (pinback, silvered bronze, enameled ribbon, unnumbered ? said to have been awarded for border actions against China?)

A 37.3/M 20 -- Type 2.3 (pinback, silver-plated bronze, enameled ribbon) -- Low = 18071/High = 23354

A 37.4/M 20 -- Type 2.4 (pinback, silver plated bronze, enameled ribbon, unnumbered, unawarded escapee?)

In the (unlikely) event anyone still reads these threads, here is a typology and serial number update on this whole series:

A 21/M 5.1 -- THE ORDER OF MILITARY VALOR

1st award (small star, 3 maker?s marks, no s/n)

2nd award (Arabic number ?2? at bottom)

3rd award (Arabic number ?3? at bottom)

4th award (Arabic number ?4? at bottom)

ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF MILITARY VALOUR

A 21.2/M 5.2 -- 1st award -- Type 1 (large star, МОНДВОР, s/n No) -- Low = 188/High = 613

Type 2 (large star, МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР, s/n No) -- Low = 318/High = ??

A 21.3 -- 2nd award -- (large star, Mongolian number 2) -- Low = ??/High = ??

3rd award -- (large star, Mongolian number 3, not seen?) -- Low = ??/High = ??

4th award -- (large star, Mongolian number 4, not seen?) -- Low = ??/High = ??

ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF MILITARY VALOUR

A 22.1?/M 6.1 -- 1st award

Type 1.1 (МОНДВОР mintmark; 3 rivets) -- Low = 110/High = ???

Type 1.2 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; 3 rivets) -- Low= 44/High=212

Type 1.3.1 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; 4 rivets; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom) -- Low = 306/High = 2401

Type 1.3.2 (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; 4 rivets; SN directly below screwpost) -- Low = 1007/High = 2581

A 22.2/M 6.2 -- 2nd award -- Low = 53/High = 56

A 22.3/M 6.3 -- 3rd award -- Low = ??/High = ??

A 22.4/M 6.4 -- 4th award (МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom; 4 rivets) -- Low = 74/High = 150

ORDER OF THE RED BANNER OF MILITARY VALOUR

A 23.1?/M 7.1.1 -- 1st award

Type 1.1 (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost) -- Low = 50/High = 2794

Type 1.2 (as above, but with Cyrillic ?B? mintmark) -- Low = 1871/High = 1901

A 24.1/M 7.2 -- Type 2.1 (Pinback 3 rivets; SN at 12 o'clock) -- Low = 3160/High = 4449

A 24.1/M 7.2 -- Type 2.2 (Pinback 2 rivets; SN at 5 o'clock) -- Low = 4685/High = 5380

A 24.2 -- Type 3.1 (pinback, bronze) -- Low = 5512/High = 5607

Type 3.2 (pinback, bronze, unnumbered, escapee?)

A 23.2/M 7.1.2 -- 2nd award -- (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost ? perhaps 40 awarded?) -- Low = 12/High = 398

A 23.3/M 71.3 -- 3rd award -- (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost ? perhaps 10-15 awarded?) -- Low = 5/High = 200

A 23.4/M 7.1.4 -- 4th award -- (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost ? perhaps 4-5 awarded?) -- Low = 3/High = 86

Just to update the typology and serial number ranges observed (in case anyone is interested?):

A 27/M 10.1 -- Type 1 (Screwback, ~ 4000 awarded) -- Low = 83/High = 3913; 1945-70

A 28.1/M 10.2 -- Type 2.1 (Pinback, silver) -- Low = 4029/High = 7020; 1970-2004

A 28.2 -- Type 2.2 (pinback bronze) -- Low = 9050/High = 9060; 2004?

Type 2.3 (pinback bronze, not numbered, unawarded escapee?)

OK, just to update the "full" typology, treating all sub-varieties and "mint burps" as real:

A 31/M 12.1 -- Type 1 (Screwback; МОНДВОР mintmark; long oval design with two red banners, ~300 awarded) -- Low = 701/High = 792; 1936-39

A 32.1/M 12.2 -- Type 2.1 (Screwback; upward-curved МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; Uighur; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom) -- Low = 9/High = 2831; 1940-41

A 32.2/M 12.2 -- Type 2.2 (Screwback; downward-curved МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; Uighur; SN directly below screwpost) -- Low = 1151/High = 2878; 1941-??

Type 2.3 (Screwback; no mintmark; Uighur; SN at 7 o?clock) -- Low = 1562/High = ????; 1937

Type 2.4 (Screwback; hand-engraved МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; Uighur; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom) -- Low = 1710/High = 1776

A 32.2/M 12.3 -- Type 3.1 (Screwback; Cyrillic; slightly concave reverse; SN at 7 o'clock) -- Low = 2/High = 6952; 19??-??

A 32.2/M 12.3 -- Type 3.2 (Screwback; Cyrillic; flat reverse; SN directly below screwpost) -- Low = 5094/High = 9941; 19??-??

A 32.2/M 12.3 -- Type 3.3 (Screwback; Cyrillic; flat reverse; SN at 6 o'clock) -- Low = 10007/High = 15000; 19??-70

A 33.3/M 12.4 -- Type 4.1 (Pinback, silver) -- Low = 15015/High = 30426; 1970-2003

A 33.4 -- Type 4.2 (pinback, bronze) -- Low = 31650/High = 39785; 2003?

A 33.4 -- Type 4.3 (pinback, bronze, no serial number, unawarded escapee?)

There's a goat tax in Mongolia?

Animal herding has been, until the 1970s, the major sector of the economy, so any sensible State taxes those sectors of the economy that exist. Glad someone finds basic economics so entertaining.

Maybe for those whose focus is on uniforms, this is OK. For those of us who focus on medals and their adjuncts it is a matter, to paraphrase Gertrude Stein, of 'A fake is a fake is a fake'. Just more poison in the water twenty years from now.

Yes it's quite easy to put together a uniform with shoulderboards, ribbons and badges to enhance value.

For ribbon bars times have changed, even the paper ribbon bars go for good prices on US e-bay. Good values can still be found on e-bay.de if you look hard enough. I don't actively collect them but have a few that I picked up in the late 80s in East Berlin, both older cloth and later paper. I'll see if I can post a couple here.

Late issue dress uniforms are still quite easy to find, although you dont see as many camo uniforms as you used to. Older "dark collar" uniforms fetch high prices both here in Germany.

Kevin

Sure, but isn't the key phrase here 'put together' which is to say 'invent'. There are less delicate phrases.

WOW! If all airlines had seat pocket magazines like this, I would look forward to flying!!

I think badly faked is a good characterization.

For sources, see http://www.omsa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=626

I have always had the impression that the new "bichig badges" are a relic of the experiments from the 1980s at script reform, the efforts to reintroduce the indigenous Mongol script to replace the foreign Cyrillic. Since this rendered almost the entire population into overnight illiterates, this has been slowed down (almost stopped). Obviously, the use of the post 1992 arms can give an additional clue to dating.