Ed_Haynes

Dang that was not the thumbs up I wanted Thanks Ed.

Sorry, mate.

But, sorry, this is getting us way for this thread and this forum!

Sorry, gotta add one more, AVM Ranjan Dutt, VrC. Would trade BOTH my daughters for HIS group!

Actually, may I correct, <24 ACE Stars?

See: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/...s/OE-RAF24.html

And others . . . .

Unknown, at present, whether their ACEs are named or not. (They are being asked, those who survive or whose families can be contacted! Same for Atlantic Stars, though my naval contacts are fewer.) As late as two years ago, the medal office in the MoD in New Delhi till stocked ACE Stars.

Alas, while Indian pilots were training and serving in the UK during the Battle of Britian, they were never operational. Drat!

Or Squadron Leader Mohinder Singh Pujji DFC:

ACE Stars for IAF personnel who were in the UK (at first, for training) and who flew over Europe operationally.

See: http://sagongs.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=649 (as citing other fora isn't naughty here, is it? p- you will need to be signed up there, sorry)

See, for example, Air Vice Marshal Erlic Pinto, photo taken probably between 1960-63.

Me too, me too . . .

Ignoring Kev's comments, . . . .

Both Atlantic Star and ACE Star were awarded to Indian naval and air force personnel (respectvely) who qualified. Pictures of the ribbons (and medals) being worn are available. Not many in either case, to be sure.

As of January 1946 numbers on ESTIMATED WWII medals for IA and RIN (no RIAF or merchant navy), to be struck at the Calcutta Mint (for issue to Indians or Brits remaining in India after Independence = not many), are shown below. As RIAF and merchant navy are excluded the est. 30-40 ACE Stars and maybe 500 extra Atlantic Stars are not shown.

War Medal 2,541,000

1939-45 1,520,000

Burma 1,210,000

Africa 202,000

Defence 201,500

Italy 150,300

Pacific 31,500

F&G 3,100

Atlantic 2,000

ACE 0 (but no RIAF included)

ISM unrecorded (it was too new anyway)

If you wish photos of the At and ACE being worn and it isn't too far I can provide.

Suspect the Najdi miniature was never made (maybe by enterprising London jewelers), though the Jordanian continuation is fairly common Iand not too different). Doubt any recipients still live to need miniatures though? Why would you need one? Surely NOT to fake a miniature group?!

Ribbon the same as the later Jordanian award (subsumed to that, though likely rarely worn). There have been some good (and some not-so-good) articles in the OMRS journal on this award to Brits.

I doubt this is a collector's mis-mounting. I'd suspect either:

1- the veteran's mis-mounting

or

2- the dealer's mis-mounting

And I'd wager (a lot) on #2. And I think I can tell you the name of dealer in Rawalpindi who is responsible. He has sacks of named Pakistan Medals (yes, the only one normally named for Pakistanis) and of all the other common (and some not-so-common) medals, and he plays "one of bag 1, one of bag 3, one of bag 4, etc." games. I watched him for 3 hours one nice May afternoon in Rawalpindi. He even "ages" the freshly mounted "groups" (with sand paper and "dirty" water). Many come to a major London auction house (which ought to know better -- but the "groups" sell).

Absent provenance, I'd view most Pakistani "groups" as no more than a sum of their parts.

I'd say that this"group" is a named Pakistan Medal mis-married with some other gongs.

A 39?

A 40?

Dolf

Yes . . .

A 39

A 40

A 52

and . . . ???

None, I hope

Digging out my list from last summer . . . where did I put it . . . ???

Well, er, the artillery was, as they assert, "ubique", so how to tell?

The big problem is, of course, the order of wearing. The 1385 Tamgha-i-Jang (War Medal 1965) should be second, after the GSM. A capital crime, no, a cause of concern, yes, and big concern. Given the truly MASSIVE number of Pakistani fakes . . . very unsure. Personally, I'd have given it a pass. Sorry, Laurence .

One named gong . . . to artillery driver . . . and some additional all-unnamed gongs mounted out of order . . . ???

Nicely put, Bob. I'm still here. And we are still NUMBER ONE (Red-Neck Amerkian voice)!!

Back on topic:

On what are there certain (CERTAIN) fakes?

1- Virgin Land Cultivation (A 52)

2- ???

Fakes, not fantasies, . . . ???

In the days when I collected to the Dogra Regiment, I never ran across a named WWII medal to them.

Interesting point, Michael. And it has led me on rather of a chase, digging through heaps and boxes and uncatalogued ( ) goodies and even research notes.

And you are right, named Dogra medals seem to be uncommonly uncommon. Though, to be honest, I selectively "pick" States' Forces medals for WWII or VCO medals and may just have passed the poor little Dogras by.

The only one that came to light is a Pacific Star, named to "6310 NK. RAM SINGH, DOGRA R.". He is not shown in the POW rolls or in the CWGC records. He is, however, there in the GoI-published casualty rolls (Part B, Vol. I, p. 36, sl. 1364) as 6310 P/A/Nk. Ram Singh, 3/17th Dogras, "died", Malaya, 15 January 1942.

I have shown the named reverse of his star below.

I have lots of GSM (SE Asia) and post-1947 and ICSC and WWI and IGS '08 and '36 Dogra medals but strangely just the one WWII medal.

Checking my working research notes on a long-delayed project on the naming of WWII medals to Indians, I find few reports of named Dogra WWII gongs "in captivity" in known collections:

39-45 - 1

Pacific - 1 (mine!)

Burma - 1

Defence - 1

War - 2

As the wise old lady said, "curiouser and curiouser".

(PS- I have, by the way, everything WWII named to Indians except F&G [which I hope to correct real soon now!], Atlantic, and ACE -- all are believed to exist, though the last two will, understandably, be incredibly rare to Indians.)

Dolf,

Ed is also a member of both forums, so am I for that matter.

Rusty.

Yes, and at the express request of a person I respect, who unfortunately spends most of his time "over there", I posted some of my Mongolian (but never my Soviet) collection over there. Given the attitudes expressed here, I probably won't repeat that mistake.

I am disinterested in giving or receiving personal attacks.

Okay okay, i won?t bore you anymore with more "Dead Hitlerites", if thats such a pain for you guys

Oh, no, Gerd, those are great fun. But this is a pleasant change of pace and a good reminder that there's more to Soviet phaleristics.

Nice thread, guys, many thanks. A pleasant change-of-pace from the "medals for killing fascists" threads (however pleasant that may be!).

Thank you, WC.

This book deserves revisitation. To be honest, when I first got it, I was a bit disappointed. The more I read (and re-read) it, the more impressed I have become with it, the more moved I am with the tales told there, and the more educated I become regarding the real processes involved in awarding these decorations (addressed in other threads here). This is not a simple "here are some sample award citations" volume. Each award is intentionally chosen to be an education. While I'd be happier with more ""centerfolds" of the awards/groups, I find myself reading it again, and again, and again, . . . .

I'd still put The Red Bible as #1, but this is indeed a close #2. For those who want to be type collectors, stay with the Bible (and consume the "Mondovor" site); for those who want the history, order these two books together.

Now, Dave, give us #3? (In whatever order .)

OK, you may not like this, but it is the best I can do. Please understand that this is difficult to do by the terms under which I acquired this as a guest. I have obscured the serial number (though in a less obtrusive fashion that that used by our distant cousins who collect that Nazi stuff).

Simply an engraved Cyrillic "МД" at the top.

Thanks, Bob, for this thread.

You remind us that, as we move past the "type-collection" phase of checking off of our "catches", as we ponder beyond the masterful presentation that Battushig has given us, and as we move from "accumulating" to "collecting and studing" Mongolian awards, we need to start teasing out the underlying systems that lurk behind these awards. While Battushig's organisation may disguise it, there is -- as Bob has reminded us -- a clear and important "generational" design component to these badges. There are "patterns" that speak to the underlying history.

Maybe they can be seen best in the various outstanding worker badges, or maybe it is just that I like them a lot (letting my ideology show? ).

While there are a few holes in the series (soon to be filled . . . ?), compare these (OW = Outstanding Worker):

1- OW of Agriculture (J 06)

2- OW of Industry (K 02)

3- OW of Mining (L 02)

4- OW of Oil Industry (L 08)

5- OW of Construction (N 04)

6- OW of Railways (O 01)

7- OW of Transport (P 01)

And we could, I think, just as easily include our familiar old friend, the OW of Herding (J 01) here as well?

Some groups. I am sure about the first two groups (the top two rows), but not the third (the botton two rows).

More to come.

Actually, there is a second one available, but it is of the current "brassy nasty" variety and unnumbered (unissued?).

Still, in short supply.

But, when you realize that we are looking at a total issue of Sukhbaatars only in the range of a couple of thousand pieces, it is rather amazing at the number of pieces already in captivity.

But, still, where DID I park that tardis to get back to the "good old days", . . . !!

That is my understanding too, Peter and Darrell. All I am sure about is India (post-1947 meaning), South Africa, and Australia. Can't say regarding Rhodesia. All I can speak about with any expertise is India (where I can give dates and percentages).