Ed_Haynes

Nice, even in the absence of his awards! Almost worth getting the research, even if just for the documents?!

Red Banner or Red Banner of Labor?

Both are shown in the Kutsenko and Smirnov book.

Pretty!

Which clasp on the Turkish War Medal???

I agree, Ed. There is no soviet order, it absolutely corresponds to. I didn?t know, the Military Merit Order was given for LS too, interesting, thanks.

Yes -- this is, I think, one more thing that makes the "Polar Star" so interesting!

All other awards have close Soviet parallels (but we shouldn't overstate these), but this one doesn't. It was awarded to everyone from Choibalsan to Soviet "friends" in uniform to Mongolian sheep-herders.

When/if we get the award rolls, we may be able to say more about the role of this fascinating award and the changes in this role over time.

I know Gerd, but I see the Red Star as closer to the Order of Military Merit [Combat Service] (a uniquely military award awarded, at times, for long service).

I think the problem is that there just isn't a Soviet parallel of the "Polar Star"? It is its own thing?

Yeah, i know, what you mean. Mine are not as high as yours, but high enough. The last research bill was more than i spent for my most expensive Order/Medal group.

I know the feeling too. But I have never regretted any research expenditure.

Thinking about it more, MAYBE Order of the Badge of Honor? Maybe? It is so much more uncommon though.

Does this work for others??

When it was established in 1936, it was third and lowest of the three national orders. It was awarded more freely than the Order of Military Valor and Order of Literacy Valor for the general strengthening of Mongolia. Over time, and certainly by the late 1940s it became the general-distribution lowest order and was freely bestowed and has been awarded some 40,000 times. In terms of numbers of awards, this compares to the Alexander Nevsky (~ 49,000). As to a parallal in terms of function, this is more difficult to decide and others fit more nicely into to the equivalances.

This is an interesting question, for the "Polar Star" (as we call it) does not match up functionally to any easy Soviet parallel. I have to ponder this one. Thoughts??

Look in the Mongolian forum (here). They are all over the place. Both the enamel and the cloth ribbon bar.

Searching using the properly spelled English name of the award -- Sukhbaatar -- should bring up what you need.

You might start in the obvious places, the thread dedicated to this award:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4230

and in the thread on ribbon bars:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6241

Ohhh! South Carolina! Thought you may have intended Zimbabwe, Queensland, or Argentina.

When I go, shall post photos.

Or all of you can post photos. When only one posts, censorhip ensues. When others post, all are shown in embarassing situations.

Not having any insigniae or any kukris (excect two given to me by Gorkha friends, one just retired from the Indian army), let me just cross reference the thread on medal groups:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2453

http://www.netdialogue.com/yy/Asia/Mongolia/MongoliaMain.htm

I've found this site very helpful: http://www.netdialogue.com/yy/Asia/Mongolia/MongoliaMain.htm

Absolutely! On Mongolia, as well as others, Yuri has good information (and lovely images). It is in Russian, but the gods have given us Babelfish so we'd always have gibberish.

Actually, looking at them again: Is that a crossed kukri and TRUNCHEON? Police maybe??

Just a thought: A DCM or an ISO? If he did go on in the police, . . . ???

I never think about the resale value, when i buy a piece. This piece just speaks to you and i am very curious, what results it will bring.

Me too. My guests get resold when I get recycled.

On Kite MM** see:

http://www.geocities.com/nasenoviny/sgtKiteEN.html

And, to quote:

Fred Kite was the only soldier to win three Military Medals in the Second World War and doubly honoured by having all three presented by King George VI. The M.M.'s along with Fred's campaign medals, can be seen at the Tank Museum in Bovington, Dorset.

Think they'd have mentioned a DCM?

Well, . . . .

An "F. C. Kite" is shown with the DCM (1/6 Glosters) at http://members.tripod.com/~Glosters/DCM.html

F.C. Kite - Sjt. - 11 March 1920 - 1/6th Bn. Italy - "He has always set a fine example of gallantry and determination to those under him. During the operations previous to the advance to the Trentino, and during the advance itself, he discharged his duties with the greatest efficiency in spite of the severest strain and long marches." (from Bath)

Is this a "merged" family group? Reaching for anything . . . .

The KPM is on the Meritorious Service ribbon, not the gallantry type. The problem I am having is that I cannot find anyone who won a DCM and three MMs !

Goody, one question answered. Will be hard to trace.

That has GOT to be identifiable. Accoding to Abbot and Tamplin, there were only two (maybe just one). They only name the name for the one they were able to trace in the London Gazette, Sergeant F. W. Kite, Royal Tank Regiment (and, note, they show no D.C.M. for him). Through 1979 (when their figures stop), there were no post-war MM** awards.

While we all know how cranky the online London Gazette is, it is a marvelous source. I have looked (briefly) and turned up nothing that would target Kite. And that means nothing. Still looking . . .

I don't have the Brown or McDermott books on the DCM (as they weren't awarded to Indians) or the Farmery book on the gallantry KPM (thought it could be a distinguished service KPM -- which ribbon is it?).

We can nail this, one way or the other. Real (and rare), fake (and sad), or a Walter-Mitty-ed fantasy.

I love puzzles like this.

Fascinating, Paul. Many thanks!

Absolutely! As Ricks' tattoo reads "RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH".

You make a good point that research may some day be closed off and we need to get all the information we can in whatever windows of opportunity exist. While it may be a silly investment in terms of resale value, it is a mandatory investment when it comes to the restoration of history to what is otherwise just a pretty chunk of metal, enamel, and (sometimes) ribbon. Doug is absolutely right.

It also makes the Master Researcher very happy and pays the cost of his new house.

We await the results . . .

Research is a duty, and sometimes -- like this one -- it reveals something really interesting and important, and restores life and meaning to a simple blob of metal and enamel. To many, even to many collectors, it may seem silly spending more money on research than you spent on the medal itself, but the potential reward is too great not to do so! And I don't mean financial reward for, as we mave discussed before, you can pretty much count of many dealers and many (type) collectors trashing the research (and often even the documents) when a medal is changes custodians. Sad, but factual.

But when you research a medal like yours (or my simple Glory 3 -- http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2329) and get a story like this (or that), then you see why RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH is our mantra!

The best thing would be to ask someone behind the counter at one of the "cap shops" in Kathmandu, just down the street from SARC headquarters. In addition to selling the traditional Nepali caps that all men wear, they also sell military insigniae and, most importantly for us, medals. They know rules and regulations COLD. I've watched them explaining to senior army officers how things are supposed to be done. And I've been struck that even senior officers -- including the very nice but totally clueless brigadier I met this summer -- don't even know what their ribbons signify. And Nepal is no different from other places: if you want information, ask a good military tailor. Asking an embassy is probably a waste of time, and especially in Nepal, given the recent changes, I doubt they'd be able to supply much in the way of official regulations UNLESS you could assist them in taking out the trash as they clear all the old royalist rules from their shelves.

The other possibility would be to find out who made the buttons (in India, I suspect) and see if they know anything.

Given the total lack of any sources on almost anything Nepali (for some reason, collectors focus romantically on the Gorkhas and ignore Nepal) and the near-total chaos in Nepal these days, I doubt much information can be found.

My guess (GUESS) is that there are separate patterns for enlisted, officers, and senior officers, and that these buttons are the third of these types. And all this in a TINY military of maybe 90,000 total, and shrinking with current reforms.

Somehere, at the core, may be something that was once real. But, as far I am concerned, this present misbegotten concoction has the distinctive odor of a 30,000-year-old "1,000-year-old" egg.

Just my RMB 10.