Ed_Haynes

Those medals are beautiful! I think I will check out Ebay now!

Be very careful Paul, as fakes have begun to appear of many PRC medals, outright fantasies of others plague e$cam, and many of the dealers you deal with make the e$cam norm seem comparatively saintly.

May be sum one know what this order is.

Yes, there's some one who does.

Liberation Order, Class 3

You may want to see also:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2906

All I know are the numbers struck at the Calcutta Mint and issued to Indian soldiers (mostly named). Let me just give all those Calcutta numbers:

War Medal 2,541,000

1939-45 1,520,000

Burma 1,210,000

Africa 202,000

Defence 201,500

Italy 150,300

Pacific 31,500

F&G 3,100

Atlantic 2,000

ACE 0 (but no RIAF included)

ISM unrecorded (it was too new)

See Gordon (British Battles and Medals) for details. Sometimes (most of the time?) "sources" are books, not the "web".

So many of these miniature groups are just pure (impure?) fantasies, comncocted out of the assembler's imagination and several stacks of miniatures and devices. Sometimes, and these are the rare ones where the faker does research, they represent a real someone's real group. Rarely would I call them "attributed", for that suggests some connection with that real person. Personally, this reflects my general hesitancy about miniatures: even the ones legitimately arttributed will never be any more than that. How many "John Chard" miniature groups are bashing about the trade? Oh, just wait, let me assemble one from period miniatures and carefully aged materials . . . . And Commonwealth collectors don't have their ever handy black light to check for glowing ribbons that is part of the kit for our Teutonic Cousins!

These are, I assume, unattributed miniature medal groups? The danger, of course, is the comparative ease with which such groups can be faked. This is especially a problem when high awards and impossible combinations are represented.

While there are FAKES, Commonwealth WWII medals are far from being Thoird Reich or even Soviet awards in the degree of fear needed. Despite what some may say, there is GREAT variability of official manufacture (all over the Empire, after all) for WWII (and even WWI) medals.

Nice image, thanks. As I recall, from trying to peep under and at the edge and getting strange looks from the guard, many of his campaign medals were unnamed specimens, suggesting these may not be his #1 set. I assume the items of greatest interest to Dave are those two small things sitting below his naked Garter sash?

Your mailbox must be very happy, Jan!

Ed

Nice one, Rick. Even if on a very odd non-Ottoman mounting.

6780421 Sepoy/Generel Duties Abuulance Joseph Phillips D'Cruz, V.S.M.III, Army Medical Corps

Vishisht Seva Medal, Class III, named: "6780421 SEP/GDA J. P. D'CRUZ, A.M.C. - 1963".

The award citation (Not. No. 6-Pres/63) is a not very useful "For distinguished service of a high order" to Joseph Phillips D'Cruz. Currently believed to be for the Goa Operations.

No. 714 Constable Manphool Singh, Uttar Pradesh Police

President's Police and Fire Services Medal for Gallantry, named: "Manphool Singh, Constable No. 714, U.P.".

Unusual in that some of the gilt remains; almost always gone. So far, recommendation unlocated; as these are undated they are hard to trace. Probably for chasing dacoits through the ravines?

Since, despite my title, I have started showing single medals, as well as groups, here I shall continue doing so. A few more.

Raksha Suraksha Corps Medal

Named: "8800243 NK. SULTAN SINGH D.S.C.".

Interesting post.

But do these belong here or in the "Other Axis" sub-forum? Or maybe even "SCW"? A "German" or "fascist ally" award?

Would a medal to a RDM be named as such - either pre or post-Independence?

Short answer: "Yes." Will dig out some samples and post.

Ed

Just to clarify, Tony (though I have to admit I am still not 100% sure what question you are asking), post-1947 Indian Army rank progression:

Sepoy/Sowar

Lance-Naik

Naik

Havildar/Dufadar

Company Quartermaster Havildar/Dufadar

Company Havildar/Dufadar Major

Regimental Quartermaster Havildar/Dufadar

Regimental Havildar/Dufadar Major

Naib-Subadar/Risaldar

Subadar/Risaldar

Subadar/Risaldar Major

2nd Lieutanant

Lieutenant

Captain

Major

Lieutenant-Colonel

Colonel

Brigadier

Major-General

Lieutenant-General

General

Field Marshal

Those in italics I have never seen anywhere other than outside Army Headquarters in New Delhi.

Until nearly WWII almost all "WO" rankes were Europreans or Anglo-Indians. Will check some post-1947 IALs and revert.

No, you see SDM and similar appointments pre-1947, and you see medals so named. But, as you note, these were appointments, rather than ranks, and all ranked below VCOs (JCOs as they are now). While it is debated every so often, the JCO ranks continue to today and are as important as always. In effect, they function as the WO and PO ranbks in Air Force and Navy do.

See: http://www.uniforminsignia.net/browse.php?...Asia&stat=India

Hope this helps?

A brief answer - will check notes and add more detail.

With technical services' growth (e.g. signals, ordnance, medical, air force), WO ranks started to be added post-WWI. Until WWII, almost all were natives (of the British Isles) or Anglo-Indians. A quick glance at the Jan 1919 IAL shows WOs:

Ordnance Department - Conductors and Sub-Conductors

Supply and Transport Corps - Conductors and Sub-Conductors

Military Works Services - Conductors and SUb-Conductors

Public Works Department - Conductors and Sub-Conductors

Barrack Department - Conductors and Sub-Cponductors

Army Clothing Department - Conductors and Sub-Conductors

Posts and Telegraphs - Conductors and Sub-Conductors

Indo-European Telegraph Department (Persia) - Conductors and Sub-Conductors

India Miscellaneous List - Conductors and Sub-Conductors

Almost all of these have "European" names, though many are, I suspect, Anglo-Indians.

More to come . . . .

also men from irland on the side of Franco, the only evidents for the moment are 2 feldpost letters.

it was a companie or brigade.

Yes, there were Irish on both sides, most of the Irish fascists coming in from religious motivations. There have been several good articles on them, and on their counterparts fighting for the republic.

Rick, get it right, or Christophe will taunt you again, silly person.

Good on 'ya, Rick!!

Not mine, but a friend is letting me post this for him:

11261 L/Nk. Sham Sing Negi, MM*, 18 R. Garh. Rif.

1. IIM: unnamed

2. MM*: 11261 L/Nk. Sham Sing Negi 18 R. Garh. Rif. (Engraved capitals)

3. 1939-45 Star: 11261 L/Nk. Shyam Sing Negi, R. Garh. Rfl.

4. Africa Star: 11261 L/Nk. Shyam Sing Negi, R. Garh. Rfl.

5. Italy Star: 11261 L/Nk. Shyam Sing Negi, R. Garh. Rfl.

6. DM: 11261 L/Nk. Shyam Sing Negi, R. Garh. Rfl.

7. WM: 11261 L/Nk. Shyam Sing Negi, R.Garh. Rfl.

Not mine, but a friend is letting me post this for him:

2933 Naik Ghulam Muhammad, 93rd Burma Infantry

1. 1914-15 Star: 2922 Sepoy Ghulam Mohd. 93/Burma Infy.

2. BWM: 2922 Nk. Ghulam Mohd. 93 Infy.

3. VM: 2933 Nk. Ghulam Mhod. 93 Infy.

4. Bhavnagar War Hospital Medal: 2922 Ghulam Mahamad. Naik. 93 Burma Inffy.

Not mine, but a friend is letting me post this for him:

221/312-1/2 Sepoy Kali Dass, 52 Sikhs/58 Rfls.

BWM: 221 Sepoy Kali Dass, 52 Sikhs F.F.

VM: 221 Sepoy Kali Dass, 52 Sikhs F.F.

GSM: 221 Sepoy Kali Dass, 52- Sikhs

IGSM: 312 1/2 Sepoy Kali Dass, 58 Rfls.

Not mine, but a friend is letting me post this for him:

3799 Havildar Sarfraz Khan 22 Punjabis (Later Subadar 1st Bn 56 Rifles)