Ed_Haynes

We need to look at another badge to see a 3rd reverse.

Your wish is my command. I'll try to pick up a few in Ulanbaatar this summer. Really, I will . . . .

hmmmm, same pin but very different back image. Hmmmmm.

The one Dr. B. shows looks like it was made from recycled oil cans. The e$cam one is much better quality. Too good? Until we know more (chronology, for example), who knows, . . . ??

@Stogieman,

there are some strange deatails about this group offered on ebay germany. The name Ferdinand Bernhardt was written on all three boxes. But the medals in the boxes don't fit to ONE persons life.

-Austria Medal fpr the Danish-Prussian-Austrian War 1864

-Signum Memorieae Medal Franz Josef 1898

-Officersclass Nishan-Ifthikar - Christophe dates the tunisian order in the Reign of Sidi Ahmed 1919-1942

How can decorations that date from 1864-1929 be awarded to one single man ?

Mathematically it is possible but I can't belive it. All boxes are made the same style and must date, if the awards belong to one person, from 1929. But the look defintely like made in the 1870ies or 80es.

So please, can somebody again check the iftikar-order. ist must be from an earlier tunisian bey.

haynau

It is going to take a better scan than the one we have here to do this, Haynau. As you know, so many people consider any script other than Roman (or maybe Cyrillic) to be just "squiggles", and so never take care to depict it clearly.

And, by the way, rather than being "anti partisan" (that sounds really Nazi), I'd guess this would be for the partisans who fought in Sukhbaatar's 400-man strong partisan army that captured Khigat from the Chinese on 18 March 1921 (a day that would become Mongolian Army Day and a highly symbolic moment in the early history of the nation). This came to be seen as THE turning-point in establishing Mongolian independence from China.

With apologies to Dr. B:

Oh yeah.... can anyone who has the current Mongolian Book that came out recently take a peek and see if there's anything in there that matches this? Thanks!! Rick

Yep, it is there, p. 80, under army badges, as C 05, "Partizan, 1921". No details, and Battushig admits the badge sections are less than perfect (but it is something!). He has talked about doing a badge update online.

I know a couple of historians who do Mongolian history, and I'm sure they can read it. Not a large stable of these folk exist; kind of like the population count of those who can read Manchu. I doubt there are many in Ulanbaatar who could handle it, after all these decades of Cyrillic.

Should any of you get the document, or one like it, I can ask around.

Although, should all else fail: http://www.linguamongolia.co.uk/

I'm not sure we yet know enough about Mongolian badges that early to be sure about much. While the "orders" may have been made in the Soviet Union, where were the lesser badges made? I'm not sure we know. If legitimate, the pair seems pretty rare. All (all) you'd need is someone to translate the Mongolian!

Splitters . . . !!!

This is per Ed's request...

The original post on the other forum has pictures and can be found HERE! although you need to be a member to view that forum.

I'm updating it as more information comes in.

If you have anything to add please let me know.

Thanks!

Rusty.

Thanks, but that link is of no use.

What you posted here is GREAT however. Thanks!!

Thanks, Rusty. Knowledge, like fertiliser, only works if it is spread around. Yet, the legitimate rights of those who do the work need to be respected (as I have addresesed in other threads).

The 2006 OMSA convention will be in Scottsdale,Arizona, in early August. It's a worldwide gathering of medal collectors of all specialties.

California, Arizona, same, same. West of that big river. The Hudson.

Gunner 1,

Is it possible for you to scan that book? I'd love to see what they wrote since I'm building a database of types and variations on another forum.

Thanks!

Rusty.

Why not build that database here, Rusty. So we can see it??

And, if it is the forum I think it is, you need to take care that you retain ownership over your research.

Gunner 1 has, as is his usual, given good and sage advice. While Purves isn't gospel, it is a nice starting place. See http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3614 for more discussion of this volume.

I would suggest spending a fair amount of the "budget", at least at first, on books and on memberships in things like the OMRS. Obviously British Battles and Medals (likely in the new edition, which Spink asserts is coming "soon" and should have the name of the author -- Gordon -- restored) and Abbot and Tamplin's British Gallantry Awards are key purchases. While the pricing is rubbish -- as it is in all price guides -- the Medal Yearbook is also of value as a beginning and quick reference source. But be aware that it, like all texts, has flaws, and the MYB probably has more than its fair share of flaws (and we're not talking pricing here!); see http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3845 for some details.

As far as dealers go, all have their favourites. I, for example, know three of the four that Gunner 1 has listed, have dealt extensively with two of them, and have had nothing but good experiences with one of them (Phil Burman). But, again, I'd suggest starting with sources, asking questions (for that this forum is good), attending what medal fair you can (the next OMSA will be, I think, in California) so you have fondle other people's medals, and only gradually coming to the stage of bringing new phaleristic guests to live with you.

OMRS: http://www.omrs.org.uk/

OMSA: http://www.omsa.org/

My two annas worth,

Ed

I'd agree, Christophe. But was hoping for a better scan before sticking my neck out.

Lovely.

Thanks, Chuck. I like the way these display the romantic revolutionary mentaility of the day.

And also look at the prices which these (legitimate) medals bring on today's market. While not rare in absolute numeric terms, they are pretty rare on the market, as most recipients are still serving in whatever capacity they earned their EII Hannuka Geld Medal and they simply haven't come to market much, yet. Distinguish: "Rare" vs. "Rare on the Market".

Whatever else we may say about the design, al least she isn't wearing the Clown Crown from other recent gongs.

Spot on.

The one on the right is an original.

Yet neither is very attractive. To say the least.

Yeah, Ottoman, I could understand, but Tunis?! Dating it from the bey's name will help. Trying to squint at first scan now.

And a very nice one too, though odd on that goofy triangular ribbon.

A closeup on the center will allow decipherment of which ruler awarded it.

Peter, all of here are quite aware that, when it comes to technology, the Luddites were absolutely 100% correct.

Yours in struggle,

Ed

The more I know, the more I wish I knew.

I think we as a forum should have this particular wise wisdom done up on t-shirts?

Real medals are those issued to a legitimate recipient on the authority of H.M.

Fake medals are medals (1) self-awarded by self-nominated-recipients and/or (2) sold at high prices to unsuspecting collectors.

??

Quality (alas) has nothing to do with it. (The GJ Jubilee medal is a sad example of the phaleristic "art".)

I have assumed that these e$cam so-called "official copies" were "fakes", no more, no less.

Lovely stuff. Thanks for sharing!