Ed_Haynes

All the Ottoman orders were swept aside under the Republic and it was the intent that the "new" Turkey have none. A complex set has, however, since been instituted.

See: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=15012

This contemporary Turkish award has NOTHING to do with the old Ottoman award (except, perhaps, a shared name, though one would need to know thE Turkish name of each).

It is important to find sources which treat these awards in their legitimate indigenous context and not merely as some colonial extrusion of French awards. The best I have found are:

Basier, L., and L. Brunet, Les Ordres Coloniaux Francais (Paris: Revue des Colonies et Pays de Protectorat, 1898) - extremely good, maybe the best out there

Basier, L., and L. Brunet, Les Ordres Tunisiens (Paris: Revue des Colonies et Pays de Protectorat, 1898)

Hugon, Henri, Les Embl?mes des Beys de Tunis: ?tude sur les Signes de l?Autonomie Husseinite (Paris: Ernest Leroux, 1913) - a model for research and information!

de R?gnier, Henri, Histoire des D?corations Fran?aises Contemporaines (Paris: Javal et Bordeaux, 1933)

I have not seen M. Delande, Decorations: France et Colonies (Paris, 1934), but it is said to also be good.

I also know of some things in Arabic, but you didn't want those, right?

So noted, JC. Thanks.

Increasingly, I am coming to see this as no more than a curious manufacturing variation.

Flat reverse - low 16, high 961

Mirror reverse - low 180, high 5009

But this forced friendship was in the context of the liberation of Korea and for an earlier uncomfortable period after the GPW but before the liberation of China when it was clear to everyone (except Chiang and Truman?) how the civil war would turn out. It was an uncomfortable and rocky friendship, where neither trusted the other.

Again, we have to remember that the CCCP was never very friendly with Mao and the CCP. Their sympathies lay with the Guomintang (Chiang and his boys as "allies" in the GPW). It ws only after their victory in the civil war that the CCCP rather reluctantly (and never very fully) recognised their deviant Chinese "brothers". The myth on monolithic communism and a Chinese-Soviet friendship was (despite the medal) another cold war concoction. Remember that the Soviets gleefully plundered the factories in the only industrialised part of China (Manchuria) to rebuild their war-devestated industries and yanked their technical (civilian) advisors out in 1960 (burning blueprints and operating manuals as they left), leaving the Chinese to structure their own "Great Leap Forward".

Again, we have to remember that the CCCP was never very friendly with Mao and the CCP. Their sympathies lay with the Guomintang (Chiang and his boys as "allies" in the GPW). It ws only after their victory in the civil war that the CCCP rather reluctantly (and never very fully) recognised their deviant Chinese "brothers". The myth on monolithic communism and a Chinese-Soviet friendship was (despite the medal) another cold war concoction. Remember that the Soviets gleefully plundered the factories in the only industrialised part of China (Manchuria) to rebuild their war-devestated industries and yanked their technical (civilian) advisors out in 1960 (burning blueprints and operating manuals as they left), leaving the Chinese to structure their own "Great Leap Forward".

I cannot help but wonder whether this is something new, in the general spirit of rediscovered national pride?

Blanket royal assent has been extended to accept and wear the Soviet/Russian jubilee medals, however. The "duplication" rule is very tattered. There was, I guess, some hope that this would silence all the incessant whining about the need for a very retrospective "Arctic Star"; it didn't.

See also: http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/24522/video

May 10, 2008, 4:30

Russia awards British WW2 veterans

British veteran members of the Arctic convoys which delivered vital supplies to the northern ports of the Soviet Union during the World War Two, met with their Russian counterparts in London to celebrate Victory Day and receive honours from the Russian state.

British veterans were awarded Russian Arctic Medals honouring their deeds and commemorating the Britain-Russia alliance in 1941-1945.

The ceremony took place on HMS Belfast, London?s Floating Naval Museum, which is a living memory from those cold Arctic days.

Back in 1942 it was the largest and possibly the most powerful cruiser in the Royal Navy, responsible for providing heavy close-range cover for the Arctic convoy.

In total 78 of them made their perilous way to and from North Russia carrying four million tonnes of supplies - food, tanks and aircraft to be used by Soviet allies in the fight against Nazis on the Eastern Front.

http://www.russiatoday.ru/features/news/24552

The Guomintang got a fair degree of support from the CCCP, while the Communists were too deviant and too radical for Stalin's taste (peasants, after all, were NOT a revolutionary class -- only soldiers and sailors were -- never mind that Mark had dismissed the revolutionary urges of all but the proletariat). The GMT had also gotten much post-1933 German (some would rather I not use the word?) assistance as well.

After the revolution, the CCCP had to deal with reality (unlike others).

Perhaps, but the 1960 edition has six and a half pages, pp. 83-89. Respecting intellectual property and copyright, I shall not scan these.

Or try this teeny one <a href="http://russiatoday.com/news/news/24528/video" target="_blank">http://russiatoday.com/news/news/24528/video</a> (but you can ZOOM your window, right?).

And this is actually QUITE GOOD .

The start of what (I hope) will become an available series:

YouTube - Moscow Victory Parade of 2008 part 1

No viruses, no porn, no garbage.

You are very kind, Paul.

Actually, it WAS my first phaleristic book!

Interesting how much easier it seems to have been in a system with proper regimental numbers, where a 1234 Pvt. John Jones was distinct from a 1235 Pvt. John Jones.

I have the 1983 edition of Dorling and unless I'm not looking in the right place I can find no listing of any of the clasps army or navy. BB&M show all the Naval clasps as they were the only ones that were actually authorised.

Paul

Dorling 1960 (did I just date myself?) reproduces the full C.W.6154 - 7/7/1920 on naval clasps. It seems to have been pulled after his death and the appropriation of his book and his name (rather like what happened with Gordon's work?).

He does not list the army clasps. Where did I see that? OMRS journal? Or actually in the PRO? Must look. I hate forgetting things.

All these BWM clasps are -- and this should be made clear -- unofficial tailors' inventions for miniature medals (which were, in their own right, tailors' concoctions).

Unlike most continental awards, we need to remember that British awards (as broadly defined) were officially issued things (not just a piece of paper) in full-size. While this made life more difficult for British jewlers and military tailors (as opposed to their cousins in France, Germans, etc. who made everything), there were ample opportunities for inventiveness and for profit in miniature medals/clasps.

I can't help but wondering whether, as it was to be an award to a foreigner, the manufacturing error was overlooked (an easy way to use a spolied piece?)?

Sorry, I haven't checked, but does the new BB&M show all clasps or just the naval clasps? As I recall, only Dorling detailed the army clasps.

I'll need to exchavate my copy of the appropriate part of Morton & Eden's sale of the ANS collection. To date, this is the best source of pre-Revolutionary Chinese medals. In the interim, you may want to check out the OMSA database, where many of the M&E images are posted (along with others, some of which have ID issues).

Just in and (as expected) quite impressive. Sample:

Oh this is very nice. Await the word from the experts before I too much.

There is a lot about many of these here. No reason to go to any other forum. Just not much reliable information around.

I have just recieved an email from a researcher (not Nota Bene though) saying that a pile of research will be arriving tomorrow

I don't know whether my order is included or not, but just the fact that somebody will be getting results is a cause for celebration!

-Alex

Extremely good news!!

Hi. I live in Russia, and we have here a lot of non-awarded afgani awards that were taken for sale from the Mondvor.....Also maky awards soviet and afgani have the same details and the same quality.....

Have you ever seen one marked? (Mongolian awards made there, for example, usually are marked.)

Have you ever seen any sources that confirm this?

I am not saying it isn't true, but just that the quality doesn't quite have a Mondovor "feel". I have always guessed East German or Hungarian manufacture.