Eric Stahlhut

Nothing on Leist in the Bavarian Kriegsranglisten.

hi mr. danner,

the enclosed link below shows another rittmeister from the same regiment--rick provided some info on him, and i was wondering if you could provide any further details, which of course would be greatly appreciated

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/58866-a-14-ek1-with-a-small-mystery/

Be that as it may, I predict a flood of them on ebay from the usual suspects.

there has been one of these on ebay within the last six months...i watched it, but did not bid, as i wasn't 100 sure what it was. i think it went for approx $100

good lord that was quick.

and thank you, thank you, thank you for pointing me in the right direction!

over the course of collecting and studying the iron cross (particularly 1914 ek1s) i have noticed crosses with a small hole drilled in the upper frame, but have never really been able to establish why or when or for what specific reason this was done. we probably will never know for sure why this was done, but i have seen enough examples to start a thread for discussion

i'll start it with this cross, which i would like like a little bit of help with... i don't have access to ranklists or rolls, and would like to know a bit more about the recipient--any help would be greatly appreciated!

core shows quite a bit of wear, upper frame with hole

reverse is engraved with catch snipped, engraving seems to have been completed over three separate occasions

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2013/post-4736-0-52495200-1371664952.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2013/post-4736-0-88381600-1371664991.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2013/post-4736-0-16714500-1371665227.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2013/post-4736-0-26490300-1371665277.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2013/post-4736-0-92426800-1371665302.jpg

the person i obtained this from stated that cross was attached to a bracelet that also had two bavarian thalers or tokens with protective saints on the reverse dating from 1767 and 1866; unfortunately i was unable to acquire it.

the 2nd royal bavarian heavy cavalry regiment "ferdinand archduke of austria-este" was a prestigious regiment that had an interesting history during the first world war, in that it was one of the few divisions that remained mounted through the end of the war and also during the conflicts with the bolsheviks of 1919! it fought on both the western and eastern fronts and remained very loyal to the crown right up to feb. 1919.

the date on the cross coincides with general of cavalry otto von stettin's takeover of the regiment , and with a recruitment drive, as the regiment had suffered heavy losses.

ok, back to the question of the hole. here are a few other examples of crosses that share this peculiar attribute:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/35551-1914-ek1-conversion/

and here

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/38658-engraved-ek1/

and here is another example (catch is also snipped off)

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2013/post-4736-0-27729700-1371668476.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2013/post-4736-0-65109400-1371668499.jpg

any interest or observations for this subject? was it a fad or short-lived tradition, and for who?

can you get a clear shot of what's on the tunic buttons?

here's an oddity--- a gold finished example of what seems to be a 2nd class with a horizontal pin!

has anyone ever seen one of these before?

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2013/post-4736-0-86293300-1369081838.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2013/post-4736-0-06034700-1369081863.jpg

the area where the jump ring would have been removed--if it ever had one at all

this is the 'kriegserinnerungskreuz 3. klasse fur kriegshilfe und verwundeten fursorge im weltkrieg 1914-1918'

there were 8 variations of this class---with or without swords, silvered or gilded, and with a red or white ' genfer kreuz' in the center

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/34518-ss-collar-tabs/?hl=%2Bss+%2Btabs

these check out under a UV...still don't know exactly what they are and i am not 100% convinced they are fake

i am very pleased to add this piece to my collection. it appears to be the first class honor cross.

heavily vaulted and made of gilded bronze with a silver or white metal pin (gilding is still present on back of pin)

does anyone know how many of these were awarded?

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-4736-0-40694900-1364658863.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-4736-0-77078400-1364658890.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-4736-0-70161200-1364658909.jpg

Very cool. Tony Colson would have so loved to see these. these crosses are rarer than one might think too.

agreed!

ehrenkreuz des bayerischen reichsbundes der weltkriegsteilnehmer, aka the 'brw' cross.

the enamel on the arms is a beautiful shade of purple, reminiscent of the interior purple flocking seen in certain 1914 ek1 award boxes

large size...55mm...the gilding on the arms has faded over time

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-4736-0-88816100-1364074780.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-4736-0-17792600-1364074804.jpg

lol

Sorry Eric, I realised I did not mail all the items I had in the auction, the Gebirgsjäger paper I forgot!!

lol!

another point to add: crosses with silvered brass backplates and real silver frames did indeed exist. i have a prinzen example that shares this characteristic, and i'm pretty sure i have at least one full-sized specimen as well.

as a result, the two points used to determine this cross's originality can't absolutely preclude the authenticity of the cross, in my opinion. a lot of weird things happened in the interim years when construction criteria went out the window. all sorts of materials were used during the post-war recession.

p.s. the cross that chris had now resides somewhere within the curio/debatable/really, really, really, good fakes section of my humble collection.

i haven't been acquiring very many items of late, but i have managed to pick up this badge along with the paper packet!

If there was an opportunity for more bling on their vet tunics, they always went for it. However, genuine versions of this medal are extremely rare. Supposedly, there were only 600 of these given out. Oberland also had an even rarer award the "Adler des Tiroler Sturmzuges Oberland" - a Tirol Eagle in red enamel with a copper-gilt cartouche with "IM KAMPFE FÜR OBERSCHLESIEN" on its chest. The reverse was plain black lacquer. I had genuine examples of both of these 30 years ago. But, with the repros of the oval medal, I wouldn't bother to find a genuine one again - just too difficult.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/31179-freikorps-oberland/

could it possibly be a ribbon for a johanniter cross?

(image attributed to c. lehrle)

thanks dean--yes, they are scarce, which is surprising, given the importance of the railway system during ww1. one would think that more of them would have been awarded (or made available for purchase).

perhaps this particular veteran's organization did not fare so well during the 30s?

These are blackened... let the thread rub in it and in a couple of months the black on the corners would be rubbed off leaving a funny looking cross indeed....

but chris, weren't there many, many, many sew on badges (that didn't have loops on the back) used during ww1 and especially the freikorps era...hmm?

also, not all ek1s had the holes drilled in the silver frame. some were done on the core--but that isn't pertinent to this topic, i guess

p.s. and you are right, many of those painted sew on freikorps badges did not fare well, i have a moderate amount of worn examples which wouldn't look so hot on a uniform if they were to be reattached...

here is the cross compared to a few known examples (both official and private purchase)... and the result is somewhat encouraging. i found a close match to a screwback example, which is most likely post-ww1 or ww2 private purchase. cross has same dimensions, is made of same brass/copper/bronze metal, and the laquer is same. the only mismatch is on the right part of the 'A'. the cross in question seems to have an 'A' that is a bit thinner.

there may be hope yet, though!

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2012/post-4736-0-99681100-1347987232.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2012/post-4736-0-00937600-1347987293.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2012/post-4736-0-14576900-1347987348.jpg

(the matching cross is on the upper left)

yeah, i guess the term 'mint' was a stretch...can i amend it to 'unworn'?

this item comes from a source that i have always considered to be beyond reproach, but you know how it goes....caveat emptor!

claudius, thanks very much for the observations, and i look forward to further insights!

hi,

here's one i am fairly sceptical about-- when i ordered it, i presumed (from the description) that this item would be a period field-adapted FA1 with the hinge, pin, and catch removed.

instead, i received a factory made, vaulted cross that never had a pin. it's of non magnetic (brass or bronze) and is in mint condition.

has anyone seen a similar example for sale? is this a known fake??

it's possible that it could be a good piece in mint condition, but the odds are against that...

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2012/post-4736-0-40065000-1347907175.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2012/post-4736-0-91385700-1347907201.jpg

i've recently managed to obtain a duplicate/upgrade of the same type (2nd)...still looking for the 1st type!

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2012/post-4736-0-09368500-1347905501.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2012/post-4736-0-88419500-1347905567.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2012/post-4736-0-21118000-1347905583.jpg

Very nice cross.

It may not be a perfect example but it is still a maker marked

Godet with Fangs. A very collectable and desirable cross.

Congrats.

absolutely!

in my previous post, i was sort of explaining my reasons for not getting it myself. my pockets aren't as deep anymore, so i have to be pickier! :anmatcat:

i saw that one when it was listed, but refrained from buying it as i wasn't satisfied with the non-matching length of the hooks and the 'fill' between the frames. it appeared as though it had been cleaned at some point with the wrong type of silver polish, which can sometimes cause the frames to separate even further.

.

glad to see that someone from the forum picked it up. enjoy!

one of the reasons i like this version: the pin, catch, and hinge....compared to a sachse-coburg-gotha war cross. same maker is likely

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2012/post-4736-0-46596400-1346711633.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2012/post-4736-0-83538400-1346711647.jpg