dblmed

More of the TN Einsatzgruppen's 'inconsistent' wearing of TN Collar Patches in 1940 & 1941. 1) The LT. 1st, 2nd & 3rd TN-Men have a Blank TN RT. Patch & a COG on the LT. Patch. 2) The LT. 4th & 5th TN-Men have NO Collar Patched, on either collar. 3) The TN-Mann at the Far RT. has a Blank RT. Patch & a Blank LT. Patch. So, the inconsistent use of TN Collar Patches is quite evident. (? Note that the LT. 1st, 3rd and 5th TN-Men are wearing the TN Cufftitles, so there they are again.) Apr 41-TN-Einsatz-Truppe Photo ..... Dave/dblmed

"...I caught Dave's comment on the shoulder board rank, so it brings into question Littlejohn's statement that "when wearing the field-grey uniform the same TN collar patch was worn on both sides of the collar, as well as TN shoulder straps/boards". YES, it is confusing. The TN Regulations, as of 1941 did state the above - BUT, this was NOT followed to the letter in 1941, or later, as period Photos show. Here is a Feb, 1941 TN Einsatzgruppe Photo where NO ONE at All, is wearing Collar Patches! Dave/dblmed

Camonut - Yes, you are right! "I did just receive Angolia-Taylor's German Police Vol II..Awsome!!!... and also Defending the Reich, by David Littlejohn. What outstanding reference publications, just unbelievable." Before these 2 splendid publications, especially Pol. Vol. 2 - we were 'in the dark' as TN Collectors! YES, we want LOTS of Photos of your special TN Uniform! "I will be MORE the happy to send endless PIC's as soon as it arrives...I don't yet have it in my sweaty hands." The best Answers to your questions are to be found in Photos, IMO, as they show "How it really was!" Q: "Did the Cufftitle come into existence in 1940 or later? All of the of 1941 photos I've seen the TN member is not wearing the CT." I'll have to say that I don't remember the exact date of introduction of the TN Cufftitle, but hopefully it will be found in one or the other, of the 2 books. It was prior to 1940, by my recollection. The TN Cufftitles are seen in many of the 1941 Photos (I am very lucky to have 7 TN FotoAlbums!), but the CT's do seem to 'fade' out in 1942, and later for the TN Enisatztruppen. The reason is that from May, 1941 on, 'most' of the TN Enisatztruppen were transferred to the HEER as the "Technische Truppen" under Eric Hampe. They gradually 'lost' their identity as former TN-men, with the exception of the rarely photographed 1942 TN-to-Heer Rt. Sleeve Patch and an even more seldom seen Black "T" on a strap to be placed across the Shoulder Boards. Here is an April, 1941 Photo w the TN Cufftitle in place (Lt. TN-Mann) More fun TN to follow! .....Dave/dblmed

Discussion of the Above Photo is best summed up as: "It seems to be [schuma, used as] Luftschutzpolizei men, due to Fliegerblouses & special LSW/SHD [narrow] shoulder boards... by my friend, lbsr." The Narrow Shoulder Boards would have been a Dark Green. Some LUFT Collectors have the opinion that perhaps Type 1 and Type 2 Luft Fliegerblouses are seen - i.e. the apparent absence of a pocket on the Schuma man on the Left. Perhaps, the case. The Many Colors of the Schuma The different Colors of the Schuma Sleeve Patches and Shoulder Boards remains an 'unknown' as no period Regs. or Documents have surfaced (Yet!). Perhaps Keith or Askold (or others) may have more in depth, substantiated information, and answers. The general consensus amongst Schuma collectors seems to be the following: Officer - Schuma Shoulder BOARDS: OFF-SB-1: Green Shoulder Boards w Silver Piping & Silver Thread Swastika = Officer. OFF-SB-2: Silver Piping & Silver Thread Swastika on Black Shoulder Boards = Officer. Officer - Schuma Sleeve Patches: OFF-SL-1: Silver Wire Thread - on Black Center/Background Sleeve Patch = Officer OFF-SL-2: All Silver Wire Thread Sleeve Patch ? on Green Background = Officer OFF-SL-3: Silver Bullion Patch ? on Black Background = Officer EM/NCO - Shoulder BOARDS: OFF-SB-1: Green Piping & White Thread Swastika on Black Shoulder Boards OFF-SB-2: Green Piping & Green Swastika on Green Shoulder Boards OFF-SB-3: Reddish/Carmine Piping & Reddish/Carmine Swastika on Green Shoulder ................Boards OFF-SB-4: Orange Piping w Orange Swastika on Green Shoulder Boards EM/NCO - Schuma Sleeve Patches: E/N-SL-1: All Greenish Thread w a Black Center & Background - on Green ................Background E/N-SL-2: All Lime Green Thread - on Green Background E/N-SL-3: All Medium Green Thread, as Circle not Oval ? on Green Background ...............(so far, this is a 1 of, so I am a bit uncertain, but seems Legit.) E/N-SL-4: All Orange (Bright!) Thread - on Green Background E/N-SL-5: Redish/Carmine Thread - on Green Background Field Cap / Side Cap Patches: OFF F/SC: Silver Wire on Black = Officer (there is Photo proof & collector's examples) E/N F/SC: White / Grey-White on Black = EM/NCO (there is Photo proof & collector's ................examples) (***) AND, there may well be other colors, Yet to be seen ? in other Collections! Meanings of Schuma Color Combinations ? for Boards & Patches: It is 'believed' but is not proven / documented (to my knowledge), that the Schuma used the standard Polizei color scheme, such that: (A) Orange = Schuma Gendarmerie-type functions (B) Reddish / Carmine = Schuma Fire / Feurschutz-type functions (Part of the basis for this Assumption is from: "In November 1941 Daluege issued a more detailed set of regulations. He identified the non-German urban and rural patrolmen (Einzeldienst) as well as all non-German firemen as part of the Schutzmannschaft. With respect to these changes, the Schutzmannschaft was largely a new term for older offices and functions, with the difference that all Schutzmannschaft men were clearly subordinated to German police authorities. There were also auxiliary Schutzmannschaft men who served on work details and carried out guard duties for the German police or the military." Link is Below ? 'the' MANY Greens ? Boards & Patches = Different Polizei functions ? still Unknown, but could well have differentiated some of the following: (IMO, Various "Green & Green" Schuma 'Boards & Patches' would have been needed (IMO) - (to ID / Differentiate specific Units) since the Schuma / Schutzmannschaften duties / activities were so widely varied, and included: General Policing of the Occupied Areas;Luftschutz Activities;Anti-Partisan Fighting;Staffing of KLagers in Occupied Areas;Guarding POW's;Extermination of Jews & Other Groups;Labor Groups;Front line fighting against the Russians;and probably many other activities.If you wish to learn MORE about the Schuma, this is a Super Link - SCHUMA Link: http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp....MVIuG&b=395183 It has more CONCRETE Schuma information, than I've found elsewhere. Hopefully it is helpful, and is not redundant. ?. Txs, Dave/dblmed

Camonut - LOTS of Great TN Questions! You are becoming a true TN-Mann & that's great. YES, buy ANY period TN publications by, or about, the TN - as that is where new information comes from! I'm 'pressed' for time just now, but I will answer all of your great questions, very shortly - "IF" PaulBear doesn't beat me to it! ... Txs, Dave/dblmed

Thanks Camonut! You Really KNOW that you have a Special TN Item when Bill Shea (Ruptured Duck) says: "I personally have never laid eyes on anything like this before and must say I feel quite honestly that a tunic of this nature is 20 times as rare as an SS combat tunic with cufftitle." I certainly don't have Bill's experience, but in 10 years of TN Collecting, this is the 1st example of the TN specific Field-Grey Uniform that I am aware of, in a collection anywhere. (I always try to remember that there are some of the 'old time' collectors, who do not Post on Forums, & some German collectors who may not Post, due to the Legal pecularities of TR items in Germany. So there may be another one out there - but it's certainly a Rare item!) I have a 1943-1945 TeNo/Police Tunic (in Police Green cloth), somewhat 'Rare' like your Tunic - as there are only 2 examples (in 'known' collections.) It is great fun to see the 'pieces' of the TN puzzle coming together. (1) One area where your TN Field-Grey 'may' differ from the standard M40 tunic, is with regards to the Loops for the shoulder straps, IMO. The TN Shoulder Boards had a peculiar 'narrow tongue' strap vs. the wider strap for HEER boards. Thus, I 'imagine' that your tunic has a "narrow" sewn in intrinsic shoulder board loops, so that the TN shoulder boards didn't flop around. ? Can you confirm whether or not, this is a correct assumption? (2) The black slip-on boards are unique to the TeNo service with the silver bullion piping with black twisted thread running through the bullion. At one time these had Metal Ciphers of some sort but these are missing. I would never disagree with the Duck, as there must obviously be some holes there in the shoulder boards. Bill is a friend, and he's taught me plenty!! I would just comment, that there are no period regulations (of which I am aware) for any metal Ciphers on TN shoulder boards. [This does not exclude the possibility that an individual may have placed some individualized metal Ciphers in the boards, at some time. Soldiers wore some strange things on their uniforms, contrary to convention and to regulations, as we have all seen from time to time!) (3) Even the belt hooks (with only a one hole set up) are special. ? This is unusual and intriguing! ? As you have time, can you show us a Photo of this special detail? Sounds neat! (4) Attached are 2 TN Shoulder Boards, just like yours - showing the 'narrow tongue' found on TN Shoulder Boards. I also added an OD TN Button, as these look so nice! It is Not marked, but 'most' TN Buttons were made by Assmann. I don't know 'if' Assmann was the only company to use "Extra Fein" on their buttons, or not. As a uniform collector, you'll know the answer far better than I do. Fantastic TN Field-Grey Tunic!! Love that TN Stamp inside the Tunic! Thanks for Sharing it...... Best, Dave/dblmed

Camonut - Super TN Field-Grey Uniform! Thanks for the additional Photos. I missed seeing this one on Bill Shea's site. Good catch! Usually Bill has a pretty nice write up on his items. "If" you still have it, could you please post the write up, as there may be some nice "Pearls" of information in there? The 1st TN Field-Greys had the 'usual' shiney TN logo buttons. Then (IMO) as the potential for armed confrontations for the TN men became very apparent, TN Tunics were issued with a more realistic OD color buttons- as on your tunic. (With the OD colored buttons, I believe that it would date from about late 1940, and probably 1941, at the earliest.) Your TN Tunic, as is, is just perfect - as Many of the TN units were required to remove the COG from their Left Collar Tab, and the Roman/Arabic Numerals from the Right Collar Tab. (But - it is more fun to have those on a display uniform, I'll grant you!!!) It is difficult to find TN Collar Tabs (but not impossible), but it is next to impossible to find a loose COG or the unique TN Numerals (as Paul Bear and I can attest!) Camonut - "IF" you haven't picked up a copy of Bender "German Police, Vol. 2" RUN, don't Walk, to get one!! (from Bender or Amazon, etc.) There is a 220+ page TN Chapter in it, and 2 dedicated Appendices for the TN. It has some amazing item for Polizei and TN Collectors. Below is a Photo of a TN Man wearing a Tunic such as yours. (Now the search begins to try to locate a Field-Grey Side Cap for you to finish it off!) ... Congrats!! ... Dave/dblmed

Hi Camonut! I join Paul, in WELCOMING you on board!!!, and especially welcoming you to the TeNo ? TN Thread! This is a thread where we Share & Learn about the TeNo, so you are right at home. You have a very RARE and a very Neat TeNo Uniform! Your TeNo Uniform is a beauty from what you have shown us thus far. (Please Post LOTS and LOTS of photos of it, including the interior, with the TN Stamp, and any other itentifiers.) From the looks of it - I believe that your Uniform is probably have the '1st Model' Field-Grey TN Uniform, authorized in late 1939/1940, for the TN Einsatztruppen. (A '2nd Model' appeared later [? about 1941] with the only difference (of which I am aware), being the use of Heer Green Uniform Collar.) The wear of the 1st / 2nd TN Field-Grey then continued through Mid 1943 (Officially, but this model was actually worn until the end of the war, in some instances.) The Police 'Green' Uniform was 'Officially' to be worn by the TN units, outside of the Reich, from Mid 1943 on. (But, there were referenced production and distribution problems, and ALL TN units, did not change over.) Attached is a nice Foto of a mixture of TN Uniforms in wear, that I recently purchased (and haven't received the photo group yet - thus the Red lines from the seller.) This photo was taken in about late 1941 (IMO), and it shows: Far Right = YOUR Uniform type - 1st Model TN Field-Grey# 3 & 4 from Right = 2nd Model TN Field-Grey (with Green Collar) - & TN Officers wearing Heer Visors# 5 from Right = TN Officer in 'Standard' TN Dunkelblau Classic TN Uniform.# 2 from Right & Far Left & 2 TN Men in Front - Heer Field-Grey Uniforms (or TN 1st Models which have been altered to Heer Types - the Only difference (to my knowledge) was the use of pebbled buttons, on the Heer type - but there may be some differences, of which I am not aware!)Camonut - Post LOTS of Photos of your special TN Uniform!!!! ..... Txs, Dave/dblmed

Thanks Paul, The Super Collection shown above is from my friend, Gary8, who LOVES to throw Great TeNo ? TN Items at me, just to get me drooling over them! I do have the 1920 & 1922 TN Cuff Titles in my Collection. I have never seen ALL 5 years, but I am sure that some lucky collector has them! I've examined about 12 of these Cuff Titles, and ALL (that I have seen), which are full length, have the GES. GESCH. G & W, a yet Unknown Maker. The Cuffs are quite attractive, using Gold Wire Thread for the Date Year, and 3 Laurel Leaves on either side, on a black cloth base. For a yet unknown reason, the RATN, Reichsamt Technische Nothilfe, issued an order in about mid 1936, that the Honor Cuff Band was to be worn in place of the TN Honor Badge (But, that the Badges could be kept by their recipients.) These TN Cuff Titles are MUCH less common than the TN Honor Badge, which itself is not that common (only about 5,500 TN HB's were issued - so, it would seem that the same number of TN Cuff Titles should have also been issued. But, where are they?) Finding TN Items? Is a constant search of about 10 years; networking with other TeNo collectors and Dealers. But, most often - it is just plain luck of finding a TN item on some Dealer's site! I check often! Below are 2 of the 1920 TN Cuff Titles, showing the Front and Reverse, and an Enlargement of the GES. GESCH. G & W maker. .... Txs, Dave/dblmed

A Posting from Gary8 on the GDC TeNo Thread to share http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc...2280097494/p/18 My, Gary! ...This is a 'Heart Attack' display of really hard to find & superbe TeNo / TN Items! ? 2 of the Gold Thread Embroidered TN 'Year Honor Cuffs" titles ? A nice TN Lapel Pin - mit Nadel (Zivilabzeichen) ? 4 of the 5 TN Honor Badges!! ....looks like 1923-1922-1920-1919 (!) ...on my screen? Quite Spectacular & Thanks for Sharing! Best ...Dave/dblmed

I just got in a nice photo of 2 Schuma men. No writing on the back. Seller states that they are "Ukranian" Schuma from an album. But, I can't tell? The Photo shows, IMO: ? the Schuma LT. sleeve patch (it is 'shiney' so perhaps that will narrow down the possible types.) ? Im Dienst Der Deutschen Polizei arm bands - NICE! ? Uniforms (& Schuma wore just about anything!) that look a bit like LUFT Tunics to me. (BUT... I am no authority on these.) One tunic has a flap pocket. ? Probable Polizei Type Collar Tabs (Patches) ? Unknown Shoulder Boards - too narrow for typical Schuma + no Swastika seen on them. ? 2 different styles and sizes of leather belts. You may see other things that I missed! ...Txs, Dave/dblmed

Thanks Paul, I got into the Schuma a while back, when the prices were not quite so crazy! But, if you are patient, good buys on the Schuma sleeve patches come up from time to time on the various eStands. You are right - on the Shoulder Boards - it takes more patience to 'buy right.' But all of that is the fun of Collecting. ... Best, Dave/dblmed

The more Schuma items that we see - the more information that we have about this rather semi-obscure TR Organization. Some great Schuma Photos are now emerging and finding a place in collections. Historians in now independent countries of the former USSR / CIS have the freedom to explore all aspects of WWII as well. Post your Schuma items for All to enjoy - & to learn from! ... Txs, Dave/dblmed

Reverse

Middle Green & Lime Green Schuma Patches I just got in 2 Lime Green Schuma Patches (after a loooong search for one!) When I compared them to the Middle Green Schuma patch shown previously, I was struck by some notable differences! The Middle Green Schuma patch is ? Definitely smaller than the 'standard' size Lime Green (& Orange & others) ? Is Round, where the others are the 'standard' Oval shape It came out of a long term Schuma collection, so that is a bit of comfort; The construction is identical - material & stitching - also comforting; I haven't seen another like it (although other Collectors may have) In hand inspection, it looks right and feels right... But, I don't know it's purpose in the Schuma scheme of things? We do see the 2 variations of Green Schuma Shoulder Boards - so, perhaps this may account for the Middle Green Schuma patch? ...Txs, Dave/dblmed

MEDIUM - DARK Green Schuma Sleeve Patch This patch is a beauty - and it really is a Medium to Dark Green - NOT the Lime Green, which I have seen previously! Also, it is slightly smaller. ........Txs, Dave/dblmed

Green Schuma Boards w Light Green Swastika-REVERSE Reverse... Txs, Dave/dblmed

Green Schuma Boards w Light Green Swastika-TOP Green Schuma Boards w Light Green Swastika (Like in the roll of 5 which VIGS showed us), I knew existed from the prior posting. But the MEDIUM - DARK GREEN sleeve patch is a new one to me. I have seen the lighter green (Lime Green) Schuma patch, but Not a Dark Green SCHUPO colored patch. Has anyone seen this one before? Why would the Schuma use Light Green and also Dark Green? (But, then again, ? the Schuma used a Lighter Green Piped Shoulder Boards with WHITE Thread Swastika, ? and ? they used a MED - DARK Green Piped Shoulder Boards with GREEN Thread Swastika So, there must be a 'logical' reason for the 2 Green colors. Txs,Dave/dblmed Attached - FRONT

Green Schuma Boards w White Swastika-REVERSE Green Schuma Boards w White Swastika - Flip them over, and 2 different fabric types are seen again. Txs, ....Dave/dblmed

Green Schuma Boards w White Swastika-TOP Green Schuma Boards w White Swastika - I have found these in 2 variations also (so probably there are even more variants!) TOP side. Txs, ....Txs, Dave/dblmed

RED? / CARMINE Schuma Boards-REVERSE Reverse... Txs, Dave/dblmed

RED / CARMINE Schuma Boards-TOPS Maybe this red is really Carmine? Looks pretty red though to me. I found 2 Red / Carmine sleeve patches which seem to match up with them, 1 used and 1 unissued. Txs, Dave/dblmed

Schuma OFFICER'S Boards - 2 Variations-REVERSE (The shiney Bullion didn't show up well in the above Photos, but it's there.) But on the reverse, we see that they have 2 different types of fabric used. So the Boards must have been made by different makers, or at different times. Interesting variations. Txs ...... Dave/dblmed

Schuma OFFICER'S Boards - 2 Variations-TOPS With the help of a friend (HK), and his keen eyes, I have been able to match up my mis-matched Schuma OFFICER'S Boards. They look pretty much the same on the top side - but -. ...... Txs, Dave/dblmed