Luftmensch

Great photo! So as a flying officer he's elected to wear a WW1 pilot's and not a commemorative pilot's badge. Did he have a photo album that is also MIA, Vince? Do you have family in Europe with more bits unaware that you lie awake nights dreaming of goblets and crosses?

Rgds

John

Yo, Aldo! The Beobachterabzeichen is an award! Whaddya want? The Pour le Merite, too, with Prosciutto clusters?

Very nice job, Vince! Can you share a photo of your uncle wearing that bar? And do you have a display set up for him waiting for the medals?

Rgds

John

Yo, Aldo!

I love these austere late-war docs...so far from the 1913/14 hand-lettered works of art with calligraphy and background design.

No info on this late-war Walter, anybody?

Yuk, yuk... You bought your case from Stogie, that's what I think! Well if he handled it and says it's okay, that's good enough for me. If it wasn't his it's a dead ringer. Here are two cases I've seen lately with the more common stamping...

Rgds

John

Something funky about the printed (?) logo on the silk...I've seen a dozen Poellath cases and never lettering like that...what's your verdict on dimensions, Stogie?

Rgds

PS Here is what I believe to be the Army zep vets equivalent...

...or it could be for the Volleyball Landesverband Wurttemburg!

Hallmark looks like "A BOX STUTTGART"

Rgds

Yup...but nothin'

The stickpins are all consignments from someone who specialised in them. I have never seen this "Godet" type zeppelin with the banners on a stickpin before, fake or otherwise. Ken had a superbly detailed one (see below) with MARINE LUFTSCHIFF VEREIN on it. BTW, one of these Zeppelins was stuck on a Marine dagger in the upcoming HH auction, which I would be very suspicious of. My guess is the stickpins are okay, but I would be happier if they had all had the level of workmanship of this one.

Anyone remember the classic photo of the Fritzmeister?

At least he wasn't sweating all over the merch...

I wasn't at the MAX but heard from someone who was that Wolfe/Hardin had an ORIGINAL army zep badge and an ORIGINAL navy zep badge. The Navy was cliche. Neither were marked. Price? $5500 each...

That's the spirit! Plug "Zeppelin" or "Luftschiff" or "airship" into the search functions of various forums and you'll see a fuller debate on Zeppelin badges and, in the mean time, if you can pick up a good copy for less than $300 go for it. I would pay 1500-2500 for one with attribution...

Study the Juncker hallmarks on Stogie's instructive posts. But assume that all the good early postwar Zeps will have no silver hallmarks. That will guarantee you a good fake. From that point everyone else will wade in with microscopic pros and cons, which is why I'm looking for good attribution, which can also be problematic. Oh, well...

Hi, Michael--

There is no book, I'm afraid. Just patience and experience. Patience because most people have never seen a real one. Start by looking for proper period hallmarks, and preferably silver plated versions, not "800". Keep your ears open for a group with an attributable badge and then study the hell out of it. And keep your money in your pocket. I've only seen a couple real ones in 20 years.

Rgds

John

Hi, Vince!

You keep asking this question, one day you're going to get an answer!

Here's a back-of-the-envelope methodology that others can probably refine...

Go through the references and scrutinize the date of every army victory scored from December 1915 on...

For first kills during (or a subsequent kill if existing kills predate) the period 12/1915 to 12/16 add one Becher to the count.

For first and second kills from 1/17 to 3/17 add another Becher.

For first kills after 1/17 and second and third kills after 3/17 but before 7/17 add one.

For first kills after 1/17, and second kills after 3/17, and third after 7/17 and fourth before 11/17 add one.

For first kills after 1/17, and second kills after 3/17, and third after 7/17 and fourth and fifth after 11/17 but before 2/18 add one.

Fifth kills after 2/18 got paper which I'm guessing won't count for Vince.

My cutoffs are only rough guesses. Please check my logic as I got a "C" in permutations and combinations. Those with anecdotal evidence can tinker with the dates and thus the final tally.

As for Ehrenpreise, our Marine Flieger forumites talk about the Ehrenpreise file in Freiburg that went AWOL several years ago. Did anyone get a look at the totals before, or have copies they can share?

If not, to get Ehrenpreise we can multiply the number of Bechers calculated above by the ratio of Navy flight crew to Army.

Rgds

Shiny Assed Bookkeeper

Agreed...I could retire and start collecting Krusty the Klown dolls, or whatever it is Stogie's into now...

Hi, Ed--

You're right. But $50,000 for 3 flying badges has nothing to do with market forces, it has more to do with chemical imbalances.

Yup, I had some eye opening experiences

Definitely, for you medals and orders guys, it is the Mecca next to OMRS meetings in London (the Medina?)

My experience I'm sure was atypical.

I find these amateurs (in the best sense of the word) sometimes lacking in professionalism. MAX and SOS might be strewn with landmines but most dealers act fairly consistently.

A few examples from OMSA several years ago:

1. A member had a fitted case with a Bulgarian, Austrian and Prussian flying badges, plus a few foreign orders to one relatively unknown pilot. If you are nuts for it it would be worth 6,000-7500 tops, and hard to justify at that level. He wanted $20,000 because he had a picture of the pilot, who edited a newspaper after the war, standing next to Hitler. At Scottsdale he still had the group, but the price was now $50,000. If that was too much he would sell pieces of the group for 10,000 each.

2. Another member was selling a WW1 U.S. wing. At 11am it was $1200....At 2pm it was not for sale. At 3:30 it was 1400...The next morning, not for sale again...

3. Another old and experienced member sold me a ring with an aviation theme. I counted out the money. Two hours later he came to me and said I shortchanged him $20. TWO HOURS later. I was furious.

There. I vented. I feel better. I think eccentricity is healthy but gets in the way sometimes of buying and selling. I did also meet Tim Tezer at that OMSA and he is a super guy as we all know.

Rgds

John

I won't touch these things any more unless they come in an attributable group backed up with a photograph. There are too many of these Zimblers about with even this level of quality. Plus those eagles always look chemically darkened to me. Zimbler, Rothe et al. were making them virtually undistinguishable from wartime pieces up through the 1950s. But I know Stogie has a better grasp on "the look" in various decades.

Rgds

John

P.S. If you're new, check out this fun thread on A-H pilots...lotsa drama!

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5741...=austrian+pilot

Very pretty, Christophe! Is there gilding left on the bird, rays or wreath?

Rgds

John

I always enjoy seeing the handiwork of gits who think Olde Englishe is the same as German Gothic. Yeesh.

How about a Badge that says:

Beats a matchbook any day

Wow, I missed that...very very creative...and at that price a chance to start a great collection of fakes at the ground floor. Thanks, Daniel!

You get my vote for "post of the past 365 days"! Great!

Cheers!

You're welcome, Theo. Yours is the sixth real one I've seen in my life...as opposed to 1,234,678 Prussian pilots, 345,689 Air Gunners!!! I read somewhere that there were only 65 Bulgarian pilots in WW1 ? I wonder how many badges were issued to other nationalities, probably a lot more. I couldn't begin to speculate whether mine is German made, though it looks it.

Maybe Stogie can weigh in here...

Here is a friend's observer...I can't find the back image but it's identical to mine except with "800" stamped on the pin.

It seems to me there were variations in the gilding from maker to maker. I saw the badge group (Prussian Pilot, A-H pilot, and Bulgarian pilot) to a pilot courier who flew back and forth across the borders with important documents. His Bulgarian had gold wreathing.

Here is the badge that just sold at Morton and Eden. Another gilding pattern, and check out that fretted out crown!

I threw on a bid of 500 pounds and then emailed them saying I needed a back image before I would increase my bid. They wrote back saying, "we'll try, we're kind of busy!" Someone else scooped up this beauty for 525 pounds!!!

The only other One of these I've seen was Adrian Forman's, years ago. It was CASED, ENGRAVED, and mounted with RUBIES in the wreathing. I would KILL just for a photo of it today!

Rgds

John

Sweet ensemble, Theo. Knowing the pilot is priceless! Here are a few close-ups of the WW1 types, for interest. You can see the light rays a little better. This first one is from my collection--