Luftmensch

These three Naval flying badges are from my scary Hallowe'en swag bag. Whaddya think? And to add a wrinkle, one of them I bought from the Stogieman...

Is this Prinzen badge an actual Godet?

In its defense, I like the maker's mark "Gebr. Godet & Co." which was not the WW1 Godet hallmark but the one used from the early 1930s on. There is a vent hole under the pin bar which is obscured.

Sorry....http://www.theaerodrome.com/....forum....."medals"

Nope, I think that's rare enough to challenge many people as to what exactly it is.

Like me, for example! Okay, now I'm feeling the love. Ulsterman, Volkmann served on Z IV, LZ 38, LZ 86, LZ 97, and LZ 113, but you can read the whole story on the `Drome under "Medals." Brian, I'll try a close-up of CEJ and post a few other badge oddities, including one sold to me on eBay by Stogieman who may `fess up today just why he divested himself of it!

Rgds

John

Ken's raising some quick cash for a trip, so consignments come after. He likes you! He'll send you photos any time you ask.

W O W !!! Not a single word on a Zeppelin Becher or a cased Zeppelin badge. You guys are tough to impress! I gotta look for some ribbon bars...

Yeah, I've got too many attributable groups...and also I collect Napoleonic swords. Kind of like balancing a crack addiction with crystal meth.

Would you believe I'm blanking on the shape? Not Juncker, don't believe it's Meybauer. No maker's mark. Rayback, 925 stamped bottom of reverse. Large initials and "1918" engraved. Six (?) sew-on holes. Also comes with Prufung altimeter tape. I was at a show with Neil O'Connor and a friend. Neil said, "Buy It."

Rgds

John

Nope...smallest piece of silver I have with a crown is an inch and a half shot cup, a Schiesspreis from a Fliegerschule dated 1917. Less silver than a badge, but nothing else. I guess it's a good bet that if they didn't have to whack that crown in they didn't bother.

What happens when it comes time to SELL that big collection, Stogie?

By the way, Der Ritt is about to list a nice engraved "925" pilot's badge to Rudolf Rademacher (his son was an Me-262 ace), NO CROWN + license + pilot's badge Urkunde. Can't think the last time I saw all three named and tied in.

Juncker didn't need the government's permission not to carry the crown, they alread had it.

No, I only assumed it for the sake of argument. For you and I to have a consensus in that hypothetical case or the community to agree with us we need positive documentation or some statistically significant survey of all badges in existence. Only a very tiny percentage--less than one tenth of one percent?--remain in attributable groups. I wonder what Robert is working on now. So far he is only saying, the badges I have seen with crowns don't look so good. I think he has to follow the money. What was the function of the Crown? Hallmarks are generally used to protect purity, collect revenues, and identify the maker. A mom and pop jewellery store could order from Juncker badges and boxes without Juncker hallmarks. Who but the government could give Juncker permission to drop the crown? Did someone say the crown is in use today? If so, could someone in this forum living in Germany go into a jeweller's shop and ask its purpose?

Brian, there is no consensus because a negative does not prove a positive, it is only suggestive of one. Since I heard Stogie make that assertion and found it was true of my attributable groups, I stopped buying "Crowns". But such evidence is only anecdotal, and unpersuasive to the thousands who own "Crowns." Let us assume the Crown is a Duty mark as in English silver--perhaps aviators serving in wartime were excused the added expense and option of paying tax on their purchase of regulation insignia by buying a badge without a Crown. But that does not conclusively prove that Crown badges were NOT made in wartime at some point by some firms. Big pieces of silver usually carry a Crown. These pieces are not regulation pieces. All Ehrenbecher carry crowns, for example. Perhaps on these "discretionary" items the avoidance of tax was not an option. Maybe some "Crowns" were made in 1913 and 1914, but because of their small numbers Robert / Stogie haven't seen any yet!

Rick, I believe the final explanation will have something to do with taxes and profits. But crowns were used with "800" marks as on the Ehrenbechers. Here's a site

http://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks.html

that lists down many German marks of varying purities all with crowns. They also have a forum, but their members aren't as trigger happy as this one! So it may take awhile before I get any answer...

Rgds

John

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

Don

Let me help you, Don....speculation...conjecture...guessing based on incomplete information and, therefore, easily denied by every one but members of our choir. Robert's gone about as far as he can go based on observation and reasonable assumptions. Some German silver or guild experts ought to step up and explain the practice of hallmarking during and after WW1.

On the other hand.... ....there will be HELL to pay, if the word spreads to the grass roots badge collector that crown=repro, not just postwar as was previously postulated. Just think of the FLOOD of bad badges and disillusionment out there. What will that do to the prices of good badges? Will "no crowns" command a premium? or drive collectors out and demand down? For every Stogie with a shoebox of fakes who resolves to educate himself, I'm afraid a dozen will sell-out and stay away. Maybe on that old supply/demand curve supply will drop farther than demand and it will be good for the hobby. Or maybe this is all speculation, the assumption of "baseline" badges w/o crowns, easily ignored by those with a financial interest in keeping supply high, until a smoking gun is found...

Mike,

Robert is focussing on two separate crowns--one on the top of the badge design or, more specifically, the shape of their wells on the reverse, and the absence or presence of crown hallmarks. Every badge is crowned, but Stogie and Robert contend that a period (1913-45) and therefore "original" badge should not have a crown hallmark

Stogie, you have been a thorn in several dealers' sides when it comes to your insistence about "no crowns". I salute you for persevering in getting this message out, and Robert for his careful analysis and logic. There is still no period documentation explaining why hallmarks were used in variance to regulations. which is probably why--it was against regs. With British silver, you sometimes encounter sterling fitted dirks, plaid brooches etc. lacking hallmarks to get around the collection of tax, and make an item cheaper to buy. I wonder if similarly, some commercial loophole was being exploited by German mfrs. for the bottom line. I also wonder why fakers seem to have rushed to put the crown back when they were not used on legit pieces. What was the psychology there? All I know is, after Stogie first raised the cry, I checked all my badges from families and attributed groups and they have no crowns.

Yet larger pieces of silver, incl. Ehrenbechers do have crowns...

I display this salty Army Zep with it--the only cased example I've seen. Hallmark is CEJ in a box.

Here's a goblet that the gang from Aerodrome will be familiar with, where the write-up is still posted.

Since then, I've picked up the monograph written by Bormeister, the German historian who "rediscovered" the Thor Becher. Pictured is the Dunaburg goblet to Jockers.

Now believe or not it often more easy to detect a fake engraving made yesterday (with the best technology) than a fake or doctored engraving made in the 50's possibly with the same kind of tools and techonology used during WWII.

I agree. In Manhattan today for all the money in the world you cannot buy engraving expertise that comes close to what was possible 100 or even 50 years ago. I don't know about London or Paris. I expect these are lost arts. Hitler would not have presented an Alpaca cup especially in 1942, so we can dismiss the other one without even seeing it.

Maybe if I pledge to donate it to JG 51 they'll tell me what it is...all I need is a veteran (are there any left?) to remember it amongst the squadron silver!

Rgds

Fakes started before the end of WWII, a regular HG was maybe worth not much in 1960 but anything related to a famous ace was and is.

Very true, and thanks for the clarification. With WW1 aviation badges, the early post-war fakes were usually done for the collector market by the same firms and cost a few dollars. But I've never seen an elaborate fake done with attribution from the 1940s and 1950s. I think the hobby was too small, the prices too low, and too many people were still alive who could sue! Maybe you can think of 3rd Reich examples. The really artistic fakes, such as today's fire gilded and enamelled Garde du Korps helmets and Faberge insignia, are now coming out in numbers because the prices of originals make such work profitable.

But everything is relative!

Rgds

John

P.S. Francois You have a magnificent collection. No room for even one WW1 Ehrenbecher?

Excellent questions, John, that I have chewed over myself.

Provenance, fortunately and otherwise, begins in the 1960s. What was an HG worth then? Cheaper to buy a goblet to fake up but also less return for your effort.

It is intriguing that Hitler might have presented this premier squadron with a goblet for more recent services in Russia if Molders never received one--as opposed to a salver or any other piece of silver. If I read Francois right, there are documents testifying to the existence of other presentation Ehrenpokale.

My field is WW1 aviation. Interesting that you ID Jacques' photo as Alpaca. That would suggest a desire to economise. It would really be instructive to see close-ups of the engraving style. I don't know if Hardin & Wolfe's photos show enough detail to copy from. My photos do. You can see that the style of lettering is very distinctive and fine for Nazi period silver. When in doubt I often take refuge in quality of engraving. I suspect the goblet that appeared in different countries is one and the same, not as well engraved, and went unsold. It is self-defeating for a faker to make multiple copies to the same ace. There is a new species of Prussian flight badge with Taube all fretted out, but each has a different RK recipient engraved on the reverse.

Amazingly the JG 51 Squadron museum do NOT want to correspond on issues related to the Nazi period, nor does the Luftwaffe Museum in Gatow.

I think the next clue will come from deciphering the meaning of "August 1942." I disagree with you that the December 1941 date would be more convincing, as with any more obvious date such as Molders birthday, death day, or a squadron anniversary. The faker has his choice. This obscure date is, to me, less obvious and more promising.

Did JG 51 distinguish itself in the month of August 1942 in Russia, in some combat catergory?

Best rgds,

John

Oh, well. I would keep a more detailed record of these odd cups in future to keep track of what the fakers are up to. There is a telltale signature to the little you describe, however. Many new reproductions in Eastern Europe are rolled out first in German auctions then, if they don't sell, in London, then in US markets, where it is the easiest to pass even badly made fakes.

As for my HG, its provenance dates back to the mid 1960s, and Hardin & Wolfe owned it in the early 1980s. I wonder if fakers copied what they saw in the War Booty book? But I would need you to clarify what you mean by "Molders" cup and where Jacques got his picture.

Rgds

John

More specific, I don't know

"Molders" - do you mean identical to mine or named "Molders" on the base? All identical?

Several "M?lder's engraved goblets" appeared some years ago

As an Ehrenpokal expert with a website you took, I'm sure, precise observations on these unusual cups, even printing out the eBay listing for your records. Would you share more details? For example,

How many is several?

What makes them "Molders" cups?

Were they presentation pieces or cups with "Molders" name engraved on the base?

If they had special engraving, what was engraved? Were they all the same? In the same style? With the same engraver's hand?

Please be more precise. Even en francais if you prefer.

Rgds

John

Hi,

I have a thread going in Luftwaffe Awards with pictures of an HG that may have been awarded not to an individual but to a squadron, JG 51, about the time it was given its designation "Molders". I was told the squadron may have received an Ehrenpokal from Hitler instead of another type of presentation silver because Moelders never received his Honor Goblet. Can anyone shed light on this?

Specifically,

1. Did Moelders receive an Honor Goblet while he was alive?

2. Were aircrew awarded HGs for kills in Spain or in 1939 retroactively? Or did the early aces not get cups?

3. Is August 1942 significant (the date engraved on the cup)? What month was JG 51 awarded the designation / cufftitle "Molders" ?

Any information would be appreciated.

Rgds

John

Modern photos, supplied by Messrs. Hardin and Wolfe. One explanation is that Hitler gave the squadron an Ehrenpokal instead of some other piece of engraved silver because Moelders never received his. That is why I am asking basic questions about the awarding of these goblets to early aces.

Rgds

John

These came with the cup...