Luftmensch

Thanks, Vince!  I know someone who bought an oval patch from a family years ago.  He asked  what else they had and they said the patch was attached to a tunic that was falling apart so they cut it off!  We all would have taken the tunic anyway.  This tunic has a couple ...I was going to say moth bites...but they look more like snake bites!  Maybe because this fellow was in at the end his tunic survived.  There are some very clean Paradejacke around but this was his working coat. 

Thanks, Alex!

Thank you, Alex.  Thank you, Erik.

There is a label sewn in crooked by the collar that says "Eisenhöfer".  I don't know what this is.

Alex, do you want me to scan all the entries in the MP from 1899, or just the Luftschiffer entries?

Hi, Alex

Here is the tunic that I got out of an old collection...in Texas!  Rgds

Simi "generally" makes sense?  Well Simi's redoubled  plea to be the authority here makes me wonder about the particular cases in which he hasn't made sense....

Gentlemen, in the annals of wasted time, our correspondence on these two threads has been possibly the least productive time I've ever spent.

A long life to you all.

Rotary engraving...you mean like this?

Rotary engraving can be spotted a mile away.

I would suggest you have the badge in hand before you go all forensic on us.

If anyone out there has the guts to take a dremel tool to a delicate original badge like this then he deserves a medal for bravery...and a strait jacket for stupidity.

Tifes, you said:

During WWI, he served as a navigator in an airship of the French Air Force.

So he would have been trained and qualified to wear the French Balloon brevet.  Nothing to verify, unless your information is incorrect.

The Austrian equivalent badge for that rate is the Luftfahrerabz.  So there is a tenuous link.

By the way,

"...obviously his biography didn’t count “helmsmanship on the airship” as flying job. Nothing more and nothing less..."

I suggest if you meet a veteran who served on a bomber as a navigator, bomb aimer, radio operator, air gunner or just "turned a wheel" you don't tell him he didn't fly in the war...

No, Sandro, but maybe an  Austrian Luftschiffer had a postwar association with a  French airshipper, who also happened to be a white Russian. 

I have insignia in my collection from Luftschiffer Vereine that had contact with friends and former enemies who were also airshippers.  They visited and socialised--yes, socialised with an "s"--drank much beer and occasionally exchanged gifts.

As for 1908...we may never be able to satisfy your desire to tie all data points into a neat little package!

The Shroud of Turin?  You're keeping an open mind?  You don't know?   It's a stretch?   I'm simply fascinated  by the subtle and shifting ways you express your objectivity, Sandro.

"...he simply spun the rudder on the airship. No pilot's test was required for that."

 Airship steersmen had to train and qualify for their rating.  The French had an airship badge for this.  Question--what Austrian badge or distinctive did a steersman/observer on an airship qualify to wear?

The Luftfahrerabz.?

I'm impressed with your spelling ability.  You said:

"...concluding that the engraving is original seems a stretch. And this wouldn’t be the first original item that has been embellished to enhance its market value."
 

Leaving poor Occam out of it, I ask that you please show us another original Luftfahrerabz. embellished to enhance its market value.  

If you can't, to which original items are you referring that you think are germane to this discussion?

If you can't show us these, then why is "concluding that the engraving is original...a stretch"?   On what do you base your opinion?

Poor Occam again?   Did he collect Austrian badges?

And in the absence of anything but your open-minded negative bias, I think the very existence of this fascinating badge tips the scales. 

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.    You cite Occam's rasor and yet no one can show me in...what...several centuries? of accumulated experience on this thread one other example of this phantom faker who professionally engraves rare badges with obscure but bogus engravings?

This discussion is beyond this badge, it's about the inclination of us, given the number of fakes out there, to judge everything we don't understand as fake.

You know what would impress the heck out of me, beyond your superior knowledge in Austro-Hungarian badges, is to hear you say, simply....

"I don't know."

I repeat: he might have used Russian AFTER the war as a courtesy, if that was Popov's language.

Also, if anyone believes Occam's Rasor / the simplest explanation is that this was made to deceive, then show me ONE OTHER original Luftfahrerabz. with a quality engraving that is demonstrably fake.  ONE OTHER....

Originality of badge is proven.  The quality of the engraving suggests it was not done recently.

In my 40 years of collecting I've never seen fakers adding quality old-world engraving to original badges.  Especially one in obscure Russian to obscure personages.

There are easier ways to make a profit.

Given a choice between saying this is an attempt to deceive

OR

this is an authentic presentation piece we don't yet understand, I vote for the latter.

Is there anything to suggest a K.u.K. aviator did not give this as a gift after the war to a Russian FORMER enemy, and someone whom the giver might have had a pre-war association with?...and have the dedication done in the language of the recipient?  After the war former enemy flyers did a lot of socialising, and renewing of pre-war friendships (especially among aviation pioneers) and mementos & keepsakes were often exchanged......

Beautiful badge! 

I'm not sure about aces faking engravings, but most of the fake engravings I've seen on real badges date to the 1990s when they were worth a fraction of what they are today.  If he meant faked TO well known aces that is not the case here on an aircrew  badge, nor was it typical of the fakes I saw.  The over-the-top fake engravings to famous pilots were always on terrible fake badges in search of a REAL sucker, not a discriminating or intelligent buyer. 

I learned the hard way in NY with a gold watch that no one is alive who can do quality engraving like this any more--it's all done by machine, and it ain't pretty.

Chances are if this has service wear it was given in 1918 and not later.  That's 10 years from the presentation date, so I'd guess this gift marks the 10-year anniversary commemorating some event like: graduating from a military academy?  Being commissioned as an officer of the K.u.K. Army?  

Congrats on a very rare piece with a mystery we may never solve a century later.

Thanks again, Bayern!

Can anyone date this?  It looks like there are little wings above the Medusa's head....Thanks!

Thanks, Bayern...what I hoped to hear.  The brassard is fake, I've learned.

I don't know anything about these...if anyone can spot anything odd or interesting I'd love to know. 

The cap seems to match the cuffs--Lt. Col.  But what are those shoulder straps--just decoration?  I see thread  along the shoulder closer to the neck.  Is that for attaching dress epaulettes? 

I also wonder if this is a wartime model tunic, and am I right in thinking this could have been worn thru 1922 when the distinctive uniform came out.? 

I was told the brassard does not belong, should be worn on a matching black tunic, and may be fake.  Many thanks for any info...

Thanks for the tumbs up.  I am going to try and find a list os serving pilots in the Luftfahrtruppe and see if there is anything close in the "F"s, though the name could be a family or friend not in the air service...

Any thoughts on this piece?  It comes in a fitted case that first accepted a pin, then widened at the top and bottom to accommodate clips.   If it passes muster, can anyone take a stab at the "F" word before the date?  I can't be sure if it's a pilot's name or a place name.  Thanks.

Great thorough answers you guys, thanks!   I had overlooked that other maker.  This was offered to me privately, and I have not bought it.   I've got one more to show, but I will post it on the other thread.  Thanks again for the comprehensive analysis...

Sorry, folks...just noticed the thread for Flying badges...

Can anyone tell me if this badge is good?

The maker's mark appears to be "VM". 

I looked it up and it is to Viktor Marzi, Vienna "um 1920".

Thanks for the help!