bravo2zero

This would be the 5th battalion of Infantry in the Egyptian Army...not the British Army.Ring when it is for sale!!!

Kind Regards

Mike

A fascinating medal bar- a senior NCO out before the French war, enlisted in the Egyptian army as an advisor/mercenary?

I find no battalion #5 on the British rolls. Perhaps a navy Tar ashore?

1. Disgruntled squaddies selling for profit.

Thanks Tony.It just seemed a litttle odd to me that they are all turning up,as I emphasised,with box of issue and forwarding slips etc.There was one the other day to a half colonel with the post nominals MBE after his name...again a little odd that such a senior rank's medal was being flogged?Mind you the treatment the British Army soldiers are getting from the politically correct left wingers who seem to be keen to court martial every officer/squadie who looks the wrong way at an Iraqi is a disgrace.No wonder the men are keen to flog their medals

Mike

2. Squaddies selling a double issue for profit.

3. Genuine, but misappropriated medals being sold.

4. Outright fakes. (No DW under the effigy, no cigar!)

5. Copies. These should fool nobody.

In that order.

It may just be suspicious old me but has anyone else noticed the large number of modern campaign medals eg.for the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns for sale on Ebay COMPLETE WITH BOX OF ISSUE AND FORWARDING SLIP FROM THE ARMY MEDAL OFFICE.?

I cannot recall the same number appearing after say,The Falklands War,either a lot of serving soldiers are cashing in on their medals,(illegal of course if you are still serving) or maybe it is just the wide world of Ebay ... has anyone bought one?Do they look OK? I do know the naming styles have changed and are now done by computer...could this mean that some cunning type with access to the same naming fonts is turning them up?

It was pretty rare to ever get the box of issue named to the recipient...most soldiers would have thrown the box away....

Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky...but they are selling for quite high prices.I'd value fellow collectors comments.

Mike

Glenn.As you can see in that photo the second ribbon has the crown and swords but not the wreath.In the oil painting of him done in 1920 he wears the same bar again without the wreath...so perhaps just a tailors copy?I spoke with the grandson who was certain that the entire grouping had never been touched and was still in a box with all the documents as left to him by his father.As you will see from the photos which I will put on the web after the weekend the awards are not mounted but still on individual ribbons.However as Rick has said, and as is born out by the statement of service that details his awards, he did NOT receive a Crown Order.The family got out of the Eastern Zone just after WW2 as the Russians arrived, so it is wonderful that anything survived at all.Could you tell me what unit the large emblems on the collar represent?Sander died on April 1st,1936.

Mike

Major Philipp Sander is shown as the Adjutant of the 6. Division in the 1914 edition of the Prussian Army List. He was awarded his PLM as the commander of Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 65. Promoted to Oberstleutnant on 18.5.20 and to Oberst on 1.4.1921 he retired as the Oberst on the staff of Infanterie-Regiment 18 in Paderborn on the 3.8.1921. He is not in my list of "Tannenberg" charakter promotions of 1938 so although still alive in the 1930s may well have been dead by the anniversary of Tannenberg in 1938.

Regards

Glenn

Thanks for the input.I will take some photos this weekend and then post them for comments.Mike.

Well, the crown through swords is un-commonly used, but we do see it. Over the wreath, not before this. A full photo of the bar, front & back, is needed!!

Gentlemen.In a group that I recently bought the officers medal bar shows an interesting device on the second ribbon.The first ribbon is of course the Iron Cross.The second is a Hohenzollern Order with swords.

The soldiers grandson assures me that the Crown Order 4th class with swords that was with the grouping was always there.Could this three part device possibly indicate the Crown award combined with the Hohenzollern Order.The recipient was Major Philip Sander PLM winner in 1918.The bottom part of the device is a wreath,the middle part the crossed swords, and the top section the Crown.It is superbly made.

Mike

[

Good morning Glenn

How do you reckon this would be for v Lobenthal's medal bar?

EK2 (1870)

Red Eagle 3 with bow (no swords?)

Crown Order 3 (no swords?)

Campaign crosses for:

Duppel

Koninggratz

Main Army (?)

1870 war medal with bars that you mentioned

Officers Long Service Cross

Do you know if he lived long enough to get the Centenary medal?

Again thank you for checking the Regimental history.

Kind Regards

Mike Downey

quote name='bravo2zero' date='Nov 6 2005, 20:16 ' post='29377']

Glen.Thank you for looking....it was very much appreciated,

Mike

Glen.Thank you for looking....it was very much appreciated,

Mike

Mike,

unfortunately no photograph of von Lobenthal in the regimental hostory - only regimental commanders

Regards

Glenn

Thank you Andy for your info.Glen...I look forward with fingers crossed for a photo!

Kind Regards. Mike D.

Mike,

I have ordered a copy of the 3. G.R.z.F. Regimental history from 1890 at the local university library. If he has a picture in there, I will scan it when I go there on Saturday.

Regards

Glenn

[

Glenn.Tremendous!Could you organise a colour scan of him in full dress uniform please?

Seriously, I do appreciate your information.A beer (or two) awaits you when next you visit Down Under.Would you think I might have any hope of finding an image of him?

Again thanks.

Mike

quote name='Glenn J' date='Nov 3 2005, 16:57 ' post='28828']

Mike,

Karl von Lobenthal retired as a char. Oberst and Brigadier in the Gendarmerie on the 30th of October 1888. The 1886 Rang- und Quartier-Liste shows the following:

OPLM

RAO4

PKO3

EK2

Johaniter Ehren-Ritter

Officers' Long Service Decoration

Following his retirement he received the RAO3 with Bow in November 1888.

He served at the following actions:

1864: Satrup, Eritsoe, Fridericia, D?ppel, Sonderburg

1866: Soor, K?niggr?tz

1870/71: St. Privat, Beaumont, Sedan, Paris

Regards

Glenn

Gentleman.Could I ask for the assistance of those with pre WW1 references for the PLM.I have seen some lovely photos of the gold PLM awarded to Hauptmann Karl Frederich von Lobenthal awarded for the 1866 war against Austria.He was with 3.Garde-Regiment zu Fuss.He later served in the Franco Prussian campaign and was badly wounded at St Privat where he was awarded the Iron Cross 1st Class.I would like to work out the other decorations and campaign medals he would have held.My thoughts are;

PLM/EK1/Crosses for Denmark and Austrian campaigns/Franco Prussian War Medal.

There was another von Lobenthal who received the PLM in 1793 and later as a Major General commanded 24 Brigade around Waterloo time.This Brigade had the 3 Infanterie Regiment in it...can I presume a grandfather/father/uncle link to the 1866 PLM winner?

Thank you for your help.

MIke Downey (Australia)

Having just invested in a couple of rank Lists and now looking towards the excellent CD may I ask the All Knowing One to set me straight on my next problem? Why the bloody hell don't the Germans put the officers initials alongside his name? I look at a list for, let's say Stumpff, and there's six of them.How the devil do you find which is your recipient?

You can tell how dumb I am ... I can't even work out how to drop a Clickable Smiley in....

Mike

I would HOPE that I will be able to join all this updated computer technology beyond the hamster powered variety I now have...

before my 100-ish year old original volumes fall apart.

They have had HARD use these last 25 years!