Tim B

Hi Demir, Thanks for the confirmation. I thought this style had a wider pin as well, possibly the style with the (*) on the pin. Tim

Hi Kev! Thanks for posting those, I have a better idea and some points to look for next time I have ribbon questions. Never knew there was such a thickness difference between original and modern remakes. Also good to see the thread differences. Thanks! TIm

I see this one being offered and wanted to ask what others thought here. My guess; original but with a replaced pin. Anyone else? Tim

Hello Kevin! Yes, and the background black seems to be a bit darker than the other two as well. Looking closely at the lettering, the Dobrogia and Marasesti bars almost appear to be sanded as they both display fine lines on all the lettering. I suspect part of the finishing process of bringing out the highlights after appling the background black color? Perhaps the difference in the thickness of the lettering is due to the sanding process? If sanded more heavily, the wearing down would leave slightly fatter looking lettering? Thanks again for your help! Tim

A little closer on the bar details. Tim

Note the bars and small details in the background of the bar. This is more color correct on the ribbon. Tim

Here's the 2nd one and this one has the atypical bars that I have been told were French produced, but no hard evidence to that. Color is a bit off; see below. Tim

A close-up of the bars.

Thought I would add a couple of examples that I recently made an offer on. First one is pretty typical 1916-1918 with three bars. Tim

Nice one Dieter! Love that case too. Is there a maker's/mint mark on the top? Tim

Hi Dieter, I am using the macro function but, the case is fairly large and the 4th Class is a little larger length-wise as well, so in order to get it all in, you have to back off a bit with the camera to object distance. That's when I start to lose depth of field and thus focus and the crisp detailing that you get when you can get right on top of something. Then trying to get the lighting just right to highlight everything you want to show without washing details out or getting a grainy image... Anyway, this is about the best I can get with my current setup. All comes down to angles and light positioning. Here's another shot and I love the reflection in the red "meatball" as it adds depth, but you can see where I lose in another area. I'll get it more perfected eventually. Tim

Wouldn't it be awesome if they still held the old dies to some of these awards?! Can only wish. Tim

Congrats and thanks for posting the PIC's and details! I probably won't see it myself anytime soon, but a good reference to fall back on in case and you just never know. So, what did you get, besides covering that youngun with funny money?! Tim

Bought some new loops the other day and can now confirm 100% the LoH in post #23 is definately that of Adrien Chobillon. I should do a quick thread on loops and what makes it, and what doesn't. Tim

Hi Kevin! Cool! Thank you for looking and I am now more comfortable with the one I was asking about. Tim

Cleaning out old PIC's and meant to post this earlier but couldn't find the thread again. Could be another possibility. Tim

Well, I'm not sure it was much of an improvement but I ended up taking 10 PIC's, scrubbed three immediately, and photoshopped the remaining seven. Each had nice points but I think this one was the best for lighting, angles, and detailing. Still, took a long time to clean things up. Enjoy! Tim

Hi Timo, You can always ask any French/Belgian sellers that may throw a piece in next time you buy something over there. I have found most to be quite receptive to finding/providing items like this if you strike up a conversation. You may try these links as well: http://www.worldmedals.co.uk/Rib/forribb.htm http://histoire-collection.com/catalog_5.htm God luck! Tim

..."The sewing on the ribbon makes me very leery as this is a very quick way to sew it up and has been seen on the "replacement" ribbons." Yes, my thoughts exactly and from the examples that call out "replaced ribbons" this always seem to be the case as well. I have also seen a couple cases where someone has applied black paint to the brass/bronze eyelet now. There are a few online dealers that outright sell replacement ribbons and some of the examples are shown below. You can see they all share this side stitching. Tim

Unfortunately, as Paul has stated in the past, many of the official records were probably destroyed during the bombing and what little remains may be lost or buried in some location that no one is aware of it. Tim

Hi guys! Paul, you are starting to get to the heart of the matter here. I too have given up taking some of the old information as gospel as I see just too many variations coming up and sometimes the groups look original and legit to each other, yet the styles don't match what we have come to believe. The mirrors on the Sacred Treasure are certainly a good case in point and I think a good starting point might be looking at period photographs of people wearing their awards. Of course, the photos would have to be clear and large enough to see the details, but you could get an idea on the mirror styles seen and then if the person was someone who could be researched, you could see when they were awarded the medal and perhaps when the photograph was taken. Enough of those should lead to a general consensus IMO. As I mentioned to you before in a different thread, we also see a lot of variation when it comes to actually wearing the awards on medal bars and the issues of "order of precedence". Again, I see a lot of medal/ribbon bars that look legit, but some say the order is completely wrong. Yet, we see no solid reference or material that backs up those claims. So...? The problem I have seen in collecting German awards is the references that have been out for many years. Much of the information was based solely on the author's theories and speculation at the time and much of that information has now been debunked as more information comes to light. In some cases, misinformation was put out in order to help sell fake items the author was taking part in. Luckily, I don't think we have those issues with Japanese ODM's yet! However, like in any learning phase, once the idea is in someone's head it's hard to change that mentality and disinformation continues to flow as more read those now dated references. Like Dieter, I commend your efforts and would be happy to assist in anyway, though I cannot read Japanese. Feel free to bounce ideas off us here and I'm sure we can make at least some progress in several areas. Tim :beer:

These questions are exactly why we need a current, accurate, and detailed reference on the subject. Unfortunately, a lot of the data is probably no longer accessable. I too follow the reasoning that the cases were probably made by separate manufacturers and then sold/distributed to the medal manufacturers prior to distribution to the issuing authority. I see enough "slight" variations in the Kanji on the lacquered boxes to say companies had several artisans doing this by hand. My concerns would be to make sure the right case lettering matches the correct era medal. I don't think we can realistically expect more at this point. An interesting note on the Showa Enthronement Medal box variations. I have seen the black and purple versions and never took much notice of it, figuring different makers, but perhaps the color of the case signifies "who" received the medal; military, civil services, other, etc. Tim

Hi Rich, No Dieter is correct here, no sense in publically smearing anyone, only leads to hate and discontent and those that are deliberately selling questionable items are fully aware of what they are doing IMO. There are always a few that honestly don't know and no sense in going after them. Luckily, most of the sellers of Japanese items that I frequent are very honest and if there is a mistake, they will try to work anything out. Tim

Thanks guys, If I have time this weekend, I think I'll try my other camera and perhaps some different lighting. I really like using the black background and will try to stick with that for now. Perhaps I can get just enough glare to separate the case from the background and still leave all the details. Tim

Hi guys, I agree Dieter, there a many items out there that appear to be put togethers for sale and its frustrating but, what can you do and Japanese awards are certainly not the only arena this happens in. I think many collectors probably end up buying multiple pieces just to be able to get one set that is correct, then they get rid of the leftovers which also adds to the confusion. On prices, I agree that everthing is more than likely going up over time, especially collectables and keeping track of prices can provide a good indication of how prices have risen over a certain timeframe. Not overly important I guess unless you want to see/show this from an investment or historical view point. Still, the consistent high price being realized by some of the more common pieces alludes me as there is no real justification behind it. Price guides in my opinion are not worth the paper they are printed on, regardless who puts their name to it. Most are out of date before the printed reference is published and really, it still comes down to what the potential buyer is willing to pay for it. It's that last sentence above that supports data, like Dieter is recording on actual sales, that prove more useful or provides a better idea what items are currently commanding. A good case in point was Detlev's old price guides on German Medals/Badges. The prices being asked by dealers was already higher than anything listed in his catalog when it came out and originally those prices were listed in Deutsch Marks. When the Euro came about, those prices were simply converted by many dealers straight across the board and you can't tell me that all those items immediately doubled in value just because of the differences between DM/Euros. Anyway, if you want to stay in the collecting game, you either pay what is being asked, or become a very smart shopper and learn to shop around and make offers. My 2 cents for what it worth. Tim