Tim B

I've seen a few versions with those corner die flaws now and on different types. I would like to confirm with Bjorn before proceeding on that issue. For now, here are some better closeups of the various versions I have so far. Each one is slightly different from the others which lead me to believe we have several maker's of the 1st and 2nd style medals. Tim Again, this type 1 has the odd bottom on the front. There is no cross bar on this one. If you count the small bars down the left & right sides; =21

Well, just when you think you have things figured out, something like this atypical Fire Cross comes up and reminds you that you know very little. Bjorn, Any chance on getting a reverse shot of this piece? Tim

The reverse is where the difference is. Not sure why two different spellings; anyone? Tim

The fronts are virtually identical with the two soldiers representing the 1830's and WW1 eras. Designer's mark is on the right edge. Tim

Here's the other variety with "Volontariis" on the reverse.

Tried to search for old threads and couldn't find any on this one. A bit of a surprise as I thought most awards have been discussed already. Here are two Volunteer Combattant Medals for WWI service. First one shown has the word "Voluntariis" on the reverse. Tim

Just wanted to add that his wife was awarded the Gold Medal of the Order of the Crown in 1972 for service in the workforce. No other comments? Tim

Hi Rob, I can understand someone like you having one or one of each variety in your collection, as your passion is the Victory Medal series. Fakes, unnofficial versions, uniface pieces all make up the collection for someone that is really into them. I have my hands in so many areas, I'm happy just getting good examples of the official versions and perhaps a couple of the unnoficial ones. What I can't understand though, is someone spending +$200. for a fake "anything". A few years back these Polish fakes were coming out and if selling at all, they sold for dirt cheap as everyone knew they were not legit. Now, you can't touch one for under $50. and yesterday was just ridiculous. I guess my concern is that the more they sell and the higher they go for, eventually, the medal will gain credence and people will get the idea they are in fact authentic. If the bidders yesterday were any indication, you can see what a good BS story along with a seemingly knowledgeable source can do to the hobby and future collectors. This issue concerns me much more than artifically setting a high price point for something that isn't really rare; say the Japanese Victory Medal for example. In this case, the guy sold his Japanese piece for $113. if I remember correctly. That is about average for Japanese VIC's, though I don't understand why as we see so many available, usually in mint condition and often with the wooden case. JM, Yes, exactly and I am seeing this trend with seller descriptions more and more. I recently returned a French Wound Medal that was not the one shown/described in the auction and the seller was a real jerk about it when I told him the medal sent was a modern piece of junk and btw...what happened to the one shown in the auction??? Oh well, got my money back and left him appropriate feedback. Regards guys! Tim

All directly relating to the Croix de Feu; the FNC veteran pin interestly has the same style shape as the others (fire cross). Any comments on that one? Tim :cheers:

Hi James! Yes, I know I need to get off my butt and get it done. Maybe later today I can post some more close-up images of the different FC examples. As far as the "Cuff links"; I think you may be more correct in that these were probably also used as buttonhole lapels pins. Was it Hendrik that had "cuff links" on his site originally?? Anyway, I have acquired more since last year. Tim

Hello, Yes, I understand that prices are considerably cheaper if you can buy over there but, 25 Euro is about average for what the UK dealers are charging online for one of these if you were to buy from one of those guys. Ebay, or knowing someone in Europe is the best (and cheapest) alternative IMO. Still, I would have seriously considered paying that amount as well for, what may currently be...a one of a kind example! I meant to ask last night; can we see the reverse?? Thank you for posting it!! Tim

Johnny, I think we are probably thinking along the same lines on the seller here. The seller carefully chose his wording in the write-ups in order to separate himself from the items; calling out that he thought everything was original as it came from an advanced collector, etc, etc. Makes me suspicious immediately, and especially when you see so many fakes thrown in. Add to that, the finish on a couple of these, namely the Romanian and Portugese pieces, looks artificial and deliberately added to age the pieces. Again, only my opinion here. I assume, you are thinking along the lines that the seller and owner are in fact the same person. I know I do and agree that the "advanced collector" would have just as easily listed these himself and known full well of the authenticity of each piece. Perhaps he doesn't do ebay, or just wanted to distance himself and his name from these??? I don't put much into ebay's individual's total numbering system, as people have multiple accounts and have closed and reopened accounts under new names. I often wonder how many proxy bidders or "friends" come in to bid the price up. I also see A LOT of bidders price auction items up with no intention to ever buy anything, just to have fun making others pay through the nose. Time will tell if any of these get relisted or second chance offers go out, but there were common bidders to several of these items. I always suspect bidders with low numbers bidding high prices and especially if they have (0) by their names. Laslo's book is, as you pointed out, not perfect. However, it is still the best reference out there IMO, and anyone having access to it, or serious enough in collecting these medals should have enough resources available to tell real from fake. Gathering good photos of original medals is the best method and using a good reference with photos should prevent making these kinds of mistakes. So, I don't have much simpathy for these people. If the buyers were legit, it will be another example of needing to do your homework first and buy the piece and not the seller's "story". Regards, Tim

He had a nice Greek piece sell for $232. which I thought was high, but I have seen these go anywhere from $150. to over $200. depending on bidders and who just has to have it. It did look nice in the PIC's. Interestingly, he sold a Polish fake for the same amount. I am still dumbfounded why people are buying these unless it's just to have a novelty item that fills the collection; still... :whistle:

Hi Rob, No, the Czech piece was an official type 2 with O'Spaniel on it, not the type 1. $365.00 is insane for that and it was in average condition. I figure approxiamtely $70.-80. would have been more like it. Tim

I really need to get back on these medals now that I have the ones I had been waiting on when first adding to the thread. I believe I have found a pattern in the restrikes for the other types as well. On to your (dcollect) piece. At first I thought, when looking at the helmet lion, maybe this one was just a poor strike, but you can see the cannon is deliberately short as the sun's rays extend down fully to the cannon. Also, note the missing spoke in the wheel. Very different and the only one I have seen like this. That makes two now that are different from the "vast" majority; yours and the one Rob posted. All the rest appear to be pretty common IMO. Congrats, a great piece. Hope you didn't go broke on it though? Tim

Hi Rob, Yes, I considered both to be fakes as well. I just wondered if some new information concerning "other strikes" might be the case. As you pointed out earlier in the thread, the Laslo reference is good but dated and there is more information available today. I was shocked when I seen his official Czech VIC sell for $365.00!!!! I guess I should sell my three but, figure I wouldn't see $80./piece if I listed them. On the other hand, he had a nice French "Charles" sell for under $70. Go figure! Tim

And the Portugal VIC. Again, not original IMO. Tim

Here's one for ya Rob (and others of course!) I had to wait till the auctions ended today as I don't want to interfere with active auctions but, I have to ask if there is something I am missing on these: The guy listed several VIC's, supposedly from another collector, and some were unquestionably authentic while others were, IMO, not. All the pieces sold and some for ridiculous prices. Here's the Romanian piece and IMO, is not an original Type 1. The reverse looks great, minus the KRISTESKU mark but, the front is rather crude compared to originals. Thoughts? Tim

Now, that is different! Never seen one like it. Tim :beer:

I also see that the Order of Leopold II is sometimes awarded to military personnel not meeting the conditions above when they have performed especially meritorious services to the King that do not deserve a special award of the Order of Leopold. An example of this would be an appointment as an Adjutant. Adjutant is a military rank or appointment. In some armies it is an officer who assists a more senior officer, while in other armies it is an NCO (non-commissioned officer), normally corresponding roughly to a Commonwealth Staff Sergeant or Warrant Officer. In various uniformed hierarchies, the term is used for number of functions, but generally as a principal aide to a commanding officer. A Regimental Adjutant, Garrison Adjutant etc. is a staff officer, who assists the commanding officer of a regiment, battalion or garrison in the details of regimental, garrison or similar duty. Non-Commissioned rank In some armies, Adjutant is a rank similar to a commonwealth Staff Sergeant or Warrant Officer. In the Belgian Army, the ranks are Adjudant, Adjudant-Chef and Adjudant-Major (or Adjudant-Majoor in Dutch language). In Dutch, they are collectively known as Keuronderofficier ("elite NCOs"). We know this guy was eventually assigned as an Adjutant, so...my next questions; First, could his assignment as "adjutant" possibly explain his early award of the Gold Medaille de Order of Leopold II? Second, would it also have anything to do with his award of the Officer grade of the Leopold II later on? Enough for now. Tim

I still have some questions centering around the Gold Medaille de Order of Leopold II that this guy was awarded. Here's the official award criteria for military personnel: The Order of Leopold II is awarded to military personnel on the basis of their length of service, with the years of training counting for half: - Grand Officer: Awarded after 35 years of meritorious service to a flag officer with minimum rank of Major-General; - Commander: Awarded after 30 years of meritorious service to a commissioned officer with minimum rank of Lieutenant-Colonel; - Officer: Awarded after 23 years of meritorious service to a commissioned officer with minimum rank of Lieutenant; - Knight: Awarded after 13 years of meritorious service to a commissioned officer, after 30 years of meritorious service for a non-commissioned officer (13 years for non-commissioned officers member of the flying personnel), and after 40 years of service for a private or corporal; - Gold Medal: Awarded after 20 years of meritorious service to a non-commissioned officer (9 years for non-commissioned officers member of the flying personnel), and after 25 years of service for a private or corporal; - Silver Medal: Awarded after 20 years of meritorious service for a private or corporal. First Question: I note that the Bronze Medal is not mentioned and wanted to know if the bronze level of award was only for civilians? Regards, Tim

Well, lots of lookers but not many comments. Anyone else want to add their thoughts/knowledge to this group? Comments are welcome. Hendrik, Many thanks for all the help and time on this! I always appreciate your knowledge base on these items as I would be lost without much of it. Thank you sir! Tim

And my best guess at what he would have been entitled to for service based on his Military Booklet. There may have been more and of course the Liege medal is not for sure but, IMO, a given as he was there defending the city on 5 August according to the 4th Regiment records. Tim

Still looking through the paperwork. I believe his wife and at least one son also have the colony paperwork. She has a couple certs and awards for civil service as well. So, long service award wise, the Sergeant Major would have been wearing at least these decorations below. I assumed he would have had the 1st Class Military Decoration as well, but I wonder if the broken active service might have negated it, or if because he was awarded the Gold Medaille de Leopold II, it was considered higher and precluded him from being awarded the lower award? Tim

Thanks again Hendrik! Tim