Tim B

:speechless: Hi James! Not hard to do for sure. You have to really bounce around to find good examples (PICS) to compare and then if you don't copy them to a central location you spend hours looking for that one example (Where did I see that?) that you think is the one you're looking for. I'm just trying to see what everyone has and try to get the information in one location for future reference. At this point, I see at least three Type 2, one Type 3, and though I haven't spent much time looking at it yet, I've only found one Type 1 thus far. I think Hendrik stated that the Type 1 had variances as well. Something to do. At least it's cheaper than German WWII collecting Tim

Well, let's try a new direction. Looking at the Type (2), I have found at least three variants that have slightly different die characteristics and an easy distingushing feature is in the lettering on the reverse. Again, the red marked areas apply: (A) Note the block style type font for all the letters and how square the "S" are; almost appearing to resemble the numeral 5. I believe this style the most common (Type 2). (B) Very similar to (A), but note the two letters (P & R) circled in "SUPREMA" and how the center letter stroke is angled. Interestingly, the front is near identical to (A). © This is the one I recently picked up and note the letters are not block style and the "S" are rounded vice square. Similar design on the front as (A & B), but with noticable differences in the land details, helmet lines, and sun position. I also think the details are a bit weaker than the other two, but this may simply be attributed to these examples. Any others out there??? Tim

Hi Uwe, Then our goals are the same, just to arrive at the truth. I have no idea what the seller might have done to the PICS, if anything. As I did not bid or win this auction, I would imagine the seller would not comment or reply to questions at this point. He has some items that seem to be original and of course some that are clearly not, so I will elect to avoid this one. Like you, I have never heard or read anything pertaining to silver versions (official or unofficial) of the Belgian Croix de Guerre, but I certainly don't claim to know everything on the French or Belgian awards either, so maybe someone else can give a more definitive answer. Tim :beer:

Hi Rob! Yes, nice PIC and I would not have any problems with the ribbons shown in the group Italian shot. So, any idea what this ribbon is supposed to be to? Or, maybe just a fabrication for the Victory medal?? No idea here. Tim

Umm, appears I have struck a sour nerve here and that was not my intention when asking the simple question of "Did Belgian veterans also have silver after-market CdG made?" Uwe, you speak with much certainty here and I have to ask; Are you the seller or the buyer here? Did you communicate with the seller and if not, how can you be so certain? Anyone can manipulate PICS as you have done with the three side by side comparison shots of the same medal, but lets take a look at the PICS I initially posted. - First, the PICS are as is from the auction, I didn't change the tone or saturation on them; they are as "silver-looking" as they were on the auction. - Second, if you look at the ribbon, you'll notice the colors are bright and correct for the CdG. If the PIC had been off (bronze showing silver), then the ribbon wouldn't be so correct IMO. - Third, the lion devices on the ribbon appear to be one gold and one silver. Note the silver one, it is the correct color and tone IMO for a period silver piece that has aged over these many years. So, I have to ask why the medal itself would be so off in color while everything else is spot-on? I do know what aged silver, bronze, and even gold looks like and IMO, this medal is not aged bronze unless the photo has been drastically played with; but, thats my opinion. I do not have a vested interest in this piece or I would have bid on it, which I did not. I am merely asking the question if original items existed. Anybody (else)? Tim

Hi Uwe, Uh, the pictures look silver, not bronze at all. I tend to agree that real silver should have toned much darker over time than the set we see in the PIC, but I can't say exactly when the set may have been produced and if the item is real silver or bronze that was silvered by some means. I can't imagine a jeweler taking the time to produce such an example out of real silver and then leave the sword details (quillians) in such poor shape, but I just don't know here. My questions really center on: Were there after-market silver pieces made for veterans, similar to the ones we see some French veterans had made? Of course, the same seller also sells the Polish WWI Victory Medal as original, so that might say it all. Regards, Tim

Close-ups. Correct Albert "A". What do you think? Tim

Here's a question; We have seen examples of French CdG where the veteran had a silver version made for wear. Not official as far as I know, but they did exist. So, what about Belgium? I ask, as a auction ended today for a rather nice looking example in silver and the details tell me the piece is not just a cheap cast copy. With that said however, looking at the sword quillians and the finials on the bottom of the cross arms (2nd PIC), are those signs of casting? Also, note the lions on the ribbon. So, is this another case like the French, where silver versions were available on the market for veterans to purchase? Tim

:lol: Confused already!? We just got started Well, the PICS in post #21 are mine, but the two (Type 2 & 3) are different; just look at the size dimensions shown in the beginning of the thread. Here's the "Type 3" from Hendrik's site ® compared to mine (L) and IMO, they are the same style. Tim

Hi Rob, First, great information here and I for one would like to say thanks as you're the first collector that I have communicated with that has so many varieties and knowledge on the different die characteristics. It's a great source of information to all levels of VIC collectors, even those with Laslo's sole book on the subject. This has always been a dilemma for Vic collectors and I personally would like to see one central location for these medals, so information can get compiled and not lost or missed when we don't go to that one specific thread/post. The topic covers a specific type of item and timeframe. How many other items are so international but at the same time, so specific in nature? Tim

Rev:

Umm, I don't know James; I just don't see the differences here other than wear, lighting, and perhaps just slightly different angles in the way the details are highlighted. IMO, your Type 3 is the same as mine other than I have a die flaw just left of the cannon., probably due to a dirty die. Here's a front and reverse comparison of the two. Tim

Type 4 ??? I wasn't aware there was a Type 4. Is this discussed anywhere? Tim

Hi, No, take a look at the initial PICS I posted and you can see the difference in size (approximately 3 mm) between the size of the medal and also the size of the "picture". The Type 3 is smaller and narrower than either the Typs 1 or 2. I added a comparison shot; check the red lines. Tim

Hi James, I don't know on the Type 3 differences here; I just don't see what you're pointing out and think it might be due to different levels of wear or the lighting differences in the PICS. Here's an example of my Type 3 again; same medal, slightly different angles in the lighting. IMO, the top leaf is the same, just mine (or the PIC) shows more details like the center vein. If I'm missing something here, let me know! Tim

Hi Frank! In regards to your post comments on the Type 2 comparisons, I completely agree. My Type 2 appears to be a lighter strike than the other two. I do have rivets on the bayonet, but mine are further apart than your example. The other areas you identified are also different. Do we know if any of these medals are/were restrikes from original dies? Tim

Type 3: That's the largest I can get them here without going into close-ups. Tim

Type 2:

I'll try to post my three one at a time (front & reverse) so I can enlarge them a bit. We know there are different manufacturers of the first two types and perhaps we'll identify more than the one Type 3 that was, to the best of my knowledge, thought to be only one until now. When comparing PICS, do keep in mind that differences in lighting and the slightly different angles can change the way the details appear on screen. Tim Type 1:

Reverse:

I guess we must have lost some threads during the upgrade as I couldn't find one of my old posts to continue there? Is it me, or does the search function leave a lot to be desired here? I can't seem to search a topic and just get a list of threads instead of all the possible posts that may have that topic in it?? Anyway... I recently picked up two more Fire Cross to go with my Type 1. When comparing these to PICS online and reading on Hendrik's site, I see there are die variations to the Types 1 & 2, so I got wondering if we had examples of the different strikes and are any maker's identified yet? Here's my three: Tim Obverse:

Finally...I found this thread again a bit late, but wanted to say thanks to Guy for providing the great reference on these medals! Tim

And the best part, it cost me $3.55!! Now, that's what prices should be! Tim

Thought I would bring this thread back from the dead as it really helps out newbies like me, plus the referenced site is great! Here's my first one; a nice 2nd class and if I did my homework correctly, a nice Albert I (1910-1934), Double A, Type 5 example. Tim

Rob, In hindsight, maybe I should be happy that he didn't send me the "mint" one in the photos. I could tell the strike wasn't a cast, but I double-checked just in case. :beer: