Zaim Qyteza

Dear all,

I saw that the speech has become only about the COLLAR OF ALBANIA and ORDER OF SKANDERBEG. For these reason I think to transfer it, to " type="#_x0000_t75">European (Non Communist States): Medals & Militaria > Southern European & Balkan States: Non Communist Era> COLLAR OF ALBANIA and ORDER OF SKANDERBEG.

I do this, with the hope to not annoy the friends of the forum. Thank you all.

Dear 922F,

Very interesting your information about the Collar of Albania piece of king Albert I.

Dear James,

I think that the Collar of Skanderbeg Order (S.O.), does not exist.

SO was created with law dt. 03.12.1925. In this Statute (article 3) was planned a 5 classes order, with another special class of Collar (the Collar for Zog and other chiefs of state) and with a Skanderbeg Medal in three classes:

Collar of the Order

Grand Sash

Grand Officer

Commander

Officer

Knight

Gold Medal

Silver Medal

Bronze Medal

In fact, then, the collar and the medals, was never produced.

The same President Zog (1925-1928) and later King Zog I (1928-1939), has always worn the grand sash of SO.

Regards,

Artan

James--

The collar/badge between King Zog's Annunziata collar/badge and his Albanian Order of Bravery badge in this illustration is a portion of his Romanian Order of Carol I insignia. Zog's Albanian Order of Bravery neck badge appears to the photo viewer's left of his Italian Annunziata star; the Carol star is to the viewer's right of the Annunziata star.

Dear all,

I saw that the speech has become only about the COLLAR OF ALBANIA and ORDER OF SKANDERBEG. For these reason I think to transfer it, to " type="#_x0000_t75">European (Non Communist States): Medals & Militaria > Southern European & Balkan States: Non Communist Era> COLLAR OF ALBANIA and ORDER OF SKANDERBEG.

I do this, with the hope to not annoy the friends of the forum. Thank you all.

Regards,

Artan

Dear all,

In his book ?Ordens Lexikon?, Klietmann writes that King Zog of Albania has awarded (around the years 1930) the King Albert I with the ?Collier d?Honneur d'Albanie (attached an image of this Collier). I have seen many sites where they speak about of the orders received from King Albert, but I did not find any sign of this Collier. Can anyone help me with any information about this question?

Best Regards,

Artan

Is it just me, or does that name sound Russian? Would be very interesting to get the translation of the reasons for awarding!

Dear Bob,

Certainly that the colonel is Soviet one. During the years 1947-1960, a number of Soviet officials, was in Albania as instructors and specialists near the units of the Albanian army.

The text of certificate said: ?FOR UNTIRING WORK AND AKTIVITY TO ENFORCE THE POLITICAL-MILITARY PREPARATION AND THE FIGHTING ALERT OF THE UNITS OF THE ALBANIAN PEOPLE?S ARMY?.

Dear 922,

An interesting and thought provoking post but 'off mark' on a number of points.

Firstly, one can hardly claim that the Prince of Wied was a protocol stickler in defence of an argument in favour of imprecision!

Imprecision is the only basis on which one could contend that the military medal mentioned in the award document was the medal of the order of the Black Eagle. There is no prima facie evidence to connect the two decorations whatsoever.

It isn't at all surprising that documents were not found in the Wied family archives in Neuwied. Prince Wilhelm settled in Rumania and became a Rumanian citizen in the 1930's. His wife's family was descended from the Cantacuzeno family of Moldova and she owned landed property there. I think their principal residence was Fantanele Castle, where one supposes the Prince would have had his papers and belongings. They may still survive there or in some other Rumanian archive, unless lost during the Communist era when his daughter was sent to and perished in a gulag.

There is no certificate or record of the award to Abbas Hilmi at the Abidin Palace because he was in exile in Turkey at the time. He had been ill when war broke out in 1914 and was recuperating in Istanbul when the British proclaimed a protectorate and Hussein Kamal was installed as Sultan. Abbas Hilmi continued to be recognised as the "legitimate" ruler of Egypt by the Central Powers throughout WW1 and received several decorations in that capacity. The only records regarding Abbas Hilmi's awards at Abidin are those that concern the awards he received before 1914.

All the letterheads prove is that the palace may have had a shortage of stationery.

I find it quite astonishing that people can compose whole posts demonstrating fluid situations or imprecision, and provide a host of reasons why correct form was not followed, but cannot admit the possibility that a hitherto unknown decoration may have existed and that it may be worth further investigation.

Cheers

James

Dear Sirs

I have the impresion that this thread is going to be from "discourse for Wied" in "discourse for us". I believe that this thread (which has now filled 4 pages) is a real contribution to this interesting Order. I think that never before have been brought together so many documents on it, like here. For this reason, I prefer to bring here another document, with the hope that everyone (who has the ability) to do the same.

Regards to all,

Artan

The object on the last photo - isn't that an old buoy, taken out of the water?

Dear Theodor,

Thank you for your help. Any help for the others?

Best regards,

Artan

Hi Artan:

Thanks for your comments! That is a lovely collection of the BEO you have! I have a Silver Medal and the Accession Medal, but most likely, I expect these photos and threads like this is as close as I will come to the BEO.

Here's a better pair of photos of the badge that was in that same lot on eBay.

Side note to everyone: If these photos are from someone here, let me know and I will give them proper attribution/credit.

Dear Eric,

Thank you for these pics. If you have additional photos of this wonderful set, please send to us.

Regards,

Artan

Here's the reverse of one of the stars (not sure which) and the case:

Dear Eric,

I am very happy for the photos you have sent. I also think that the box is not original. I am very interested in any contribute for this order and generally for Wied era. I send you my set of BEO. A part of them are find here in Albania, the others in different fairs in Italy. Thenk you again for the photos.

Regards,

Artan

Artan,

Sorry, but what is your point exactly?

Are you saying that the order wasn't Albanian or that his book is an official document conferring a decoration on a recipient?

Cheers,

James

Dear James,

My exact point of view is that: We can not check accuracy on the terms used during the six months of Wied in Albania. If we find used the term ?Military Medal? instead of ?Black Eagle Medal? or, ?Albanian Eagle? instead of ?Black Eagle? this should not be understood as another medal or order, but as simply inaccuracy.

The same reasoning can applies to the Babilonia of languages spoken in Durres at that moment.

By the way, can you tell me what the hell of language is speaking in this picture the Prusian prince of Wied with an aborigine of mountains of Albania?

Regards,

Artan

Precisely why it is of such interest and needs proper and further investigation.

Court Marshals are usually sticklers for protocol and indeed the arbiters of these matters. They are unlikely to be calling awards by totally different names just for the hell of it or through a fit of absentmindedness. Hard to fathom how a Medal of the Order of the Black Eagle could be called something else by such a person.

My observation about the use of French was the appointment was to an Albanian from the Albanian speaking Marshal of the Court. One can imagine a French language document to a foreigner, but a little odd in this particular case.

James

Cheers,

James

Dear Hoard,

The same Heaton-Armstron who was secretary of the Black Eagle Order, call him simply ?Albanian Eagle Order? in his book (!!!).

Regards,

Artan

Dear Artan,

This "simple" Albanian Bey communicated with other Albanians in French!

As for the title "Grand Cross". Yes, Wilhlem had other things on his mind after her got to Albania but for all of his time before he got there he spent on designing orders and uniforms. Heaton-Armstrong complains about him wasting time on these matters. If one looks at the design of the Black Eagle clearly an good deal of thought went into making sure it was not based on a cross.

By the way, what are the Albanian terms for the other grades?

With all good wishes

James

Dear James,

The Classes of the orders in Albanian, during the period of King Zog and King V-E III, were:

1. Grand Cross: Kordon i Madh me Yll (Grand Cordon with Star).

2. Grand Officer: Oficer i Madh.

3. Commander: Kumandar.

4. Officer: Oficer.

5. Knight: Kalores.

Regards,

Artan

Dear Artan

I think it is safe to say that Klietmann is not completely accurate.

Does he include Heaton-Armstrong or the Khedive of Egypt in his lists?

I have a few other doubts about information about the BE Order in general. For example, was the first class of the Order really called Grand "Cross", when most of the Albanian people were Muslim and the use of such a term would have caused offence? Clearly, trouble was taken over the design so that none of the insignia were based on a cross.

James

My dear poor Mr. Hoard,

You are very European people to comprehend what Albania was. The Prime minister of Wied, Turhan pascia Permeti, spoke in French with the Prince, in Turkish with his ministers and the Albanians, in Persian with his staff and in Italian or French with the diplomatic corp. Generally the cultured Albanians of that period, spoke between us in French or in Turkish.

You use a very sounding title of ?Marshal of the Court?, but you forgot that this person was a simple Turkish-Albanian bey.

I agree with you, for the lisle of Klietmann. No, he does include in his list Heaton-Armstrong, but include the secretary of Khedive of Egypt for Grand Officer Class.

King Zog for his Orders of Besa and Skanderbeg, don?t use the word ?Grand Cross? but ?Grand Star? (Yll i Madh). However I think that to the Prince was not presented the problem of the word ?cross?, because he had much more serious problems during his troublous days in Durr?s and because only two Albanians received the class of Grand Cross (both of them Muslims).

Ps. Dear 922F, please help me to convince Mr. Hoard that ?Military Medal? is the same with ?Medal of the Black Eagle Order?.

Best regards to all,

Artan

Dear Artan

I think it is safe to say that Klietmann is not completely accurate.

Does he include Heaton-Armstrong or the Khedive of Egypt in his lists?

I have a few other doubts about information about the BE Order in general. For example, was the first class of the Order really called Grand "Cross", when most of the Albanian people were Muslim and the use of such a term would have caused offence? Clearly, trouble was taken over the design so that none of the insignia were based on a cross.

James

My dear poor Mr. Hoard,

You are very European people to comprehend what Albania was. The Prime minister of Wied, Turhan pascia Permeti, spoke in French with the Prince, in Turkish with his ministers and the Albanians, in Persian with his staff and in Italian or French with the diplomatic corp. Generally the cultured Albanians of that period, spoke between us in French or in Turkish.

You use a very sounding title of ?Marshal of the Court?, but you forgot that this person was a simple Turkish-Albanian bey.

I agree with you, for the lisle of Klietmann. No, he does include in his list Heaton-Armstrong, but include the secretary of Khedive of Egypt for Grand Officer Class.

King Zog for his Orders of Besa and Skanderbeg, don?t use the word ?Grand Cross? but ?Grand Star? (Yll i Madh). However I think that to the Prince was not presented the problem of the word ?cross?, because he had much more serious problems during his troublous days in Durr?s and because only two Albanians received the class of Grand Cross (both of them Muslims).

Ps. Dear 922F, please help me to convince Mr. Hoard that ?Military Medal? is the same with ?Medal of the Black Eagle Order?.

Best regards to all,

Artan

Dear Sirs,

Through you, I found the site http://www.onderscheidingenforum.nl. In this site, I found a list of the Dutch officers decorated with the Black Eagle Order. According to this list, are 13 Dutch officers decorated with the class of Officer of BEO. But from the other side, to the Ordens Lexikon of Klietmann, does exist any Dutch decorated with the Officer of BEO. How can resolve this controversial?

Decorated with Officer Clas of BEO, according to Klietmann:

Date:

1

A German officer.

04.08.1914

2

Dr. R. Wendelmuth, German historian.

1918

3

Archivrat Schoppl, Regensburg, German Historian of Wied.

1923

4

A German, staff person (diploma of 1921).

08.1914

5

" (diploma of 1923).

01.09.1914

6

An official of the Princess Schonburg-Waldenburg Court.

1919

7

"

"

8

A German Jurist.

1920

9

A Wiener scholar.

"

10

An Albanian poet, author of Albanian national anthem.

1921

Regards,

Artan

Sorry, this is the only scan I have,

The set belonged to Major Lucas Roelfsema

Dutch Officerscross with number 30

Mobilisation cross 1914-1918

Knight 4th class (officer) in the Order of the Black Eagle from Albania - 2-8-1914

4th class in the Pruissian Crown Order

Knight 2nd class in the White Falcon Order of Saxe-Weimer

Medal of Prins William van Wied - 7-3-1914

See: http://www.onderscheidingenforum.nl/viewtopic.php?t=2

Dear Sirs,

Through you, I found the site http://www.onderscheidingenforum.nl. In this site, I found a list of the Dutch officers decorated with the Black Eagle Order. According to this list, are 13 Dutch officers decorated with the class of Officer of BEO. But from the other side, to the Ordens Lexikon of Klietmann, does exist any Dutch decorated with the Officer of BEO. How can resolve this controversial?

1

A German officer.

2

Dr. R. Wendelmuth, German historian.

3

Archivrat Schoppl, Regensburg, German Historian of Wied.

4

A German, staff person (diploma of 1921).

5

6

An official of the Princess Schonburg-Waldenburg Court.

7

8

A German Jurist.

9

A Wiener scholar.

10

An Albanian poet, author of Albanian national anthem.

Regards,

Artan

Hi Artan:

If I may ask, is that Shevket V?rlaci wearing the PFA badge?

Cheers,

Eric

Hi Eric,

You are right. He is Shefqet bey Verlaci, in a photo of 1939, when he was primeminister of Albania (1939-1942) under king V-E III.

Regards,

Artan

Dear Artan,

I am just looking for any sort of actual verification from an official source which equates the Military Medal with the Medal of the Order of the Black Eagle. I am perfectly happy to have it via Albanian or any other precision. Any precision will do. Although, given that the prince was a Prussian officer, one could ask why not Prussian?

As for the regnal titles. Wilhelm was proclaimed as Mbret (King) with the style of Madheri (Majesty) when the delegation led by Essad Pasha descended upon Neuwied in February 1914. I gather that these were the usual forms of address for the Ottoman Sultan. When the King landed in Durazzo in March, everyone addressed him as King, including members of his court and other foreign officials. However, shortly afterwards "clarification" was issued after protests from some of the protecting powers who, citing the London Treaty where 'Prince' is specified, insisted that the titles be rendered as 'Prince' and 'Highness' only.

According to Heaton-Armstrong, who aslo calls him King in his diary, the European Royal Houses did not think Wilhelm would last the course. They did not want another exiled King roaming European courts and causing embarrasment all round.

Consequently, one would need to look at the dates of the documents concerned before one can necessarily cite them as examples of confusion.

Cheers,

James

Dear James,

If we look the dates of the documents, the confusion increase.

Regards,

Artan

Hello Artan,

Again, many thanks for the interesting document. However, that document also does not actually equate or even mention the Black Eagle order or medals. It only mentions "fidelity/loyalty and unity". While this motto may be on the Black Eagle order it isn't conclusive evidence that the two decorations are the same or that the same motto may not have been used elsewhere.

Is there any subtle difference in meaning between "bese e bashkim" and "bese dhe bashkim"

With good wishes,

James

Dear James.

BESE E BASHKIM is idem with BESE DHE BASHKIM. The albanian language use both of the forms ?E?, ?DHE?, ?EDHE? for the english ?AND?.

Dear Sir, you are looking for Prussian precision in Albania of 1914 (!!!)

The same Prince Wied, was not sure for his own title. Here attached two documents. On the first he call herself ?His Majesty the King? on the other ?His Highness the Prince? (!!!).

You must be sure, that the ?Military Medal? is the same with ?Medal of the Black Eagle Order?, and with (in vulgus dictum) ?Bes? e Bashkim Medal?.

Regards,

Artan

Sorry, this is the only scan I have,

The set belonged to Major Lucas Roelfsema

Dutch Officerscross with number 30

Mobilisation cross 1914-1918

Knight 4th class (officer) in the Order of the Black Eagle from Albania - 2-8-1914

4th class in the Pruissian Crown Order

Knight 2nd class in the White Falcon Order of Saxe-Weimer

Medal of Prins William van Wied - 7-3-1914

Dear Sir,

Thank you for posting the Forum www.onderscheidingenforum.nl. It was very interesting. I see there a very beautiful picture of the cushion with the medals of Col. Thomson. I attach here another cushion with the decorations of grand officer of the Black Eagle Order in a picture of a funeral on 1941 in Tirana. The other orders are Grand Cross of Skanderbeg Order and Grand Officer of an A-H Order. I am interested in any information, picture, etc. of the period of Prince Wied.

Regards,

Artan

See: http://www.onderscheidingenforum.nl/viewtopic.php?t=2

A old scan of a Dutch Set. Worn by a member of the Dutch contingent,

Meine Herr General,.

Very interesant piece. Can you give as a better copy of this medal bar? I find in another Forum this one (see attach).

Regards,

Artan

Artan,

Many thanks.

Is your equation of the "Medaille Militaire en argent" with the Medal of the Order of the Black Eagle based on any actual hard evidence or is it a guess?

It seems to me there is nothing in the award document to say that the award conferred has anything to do with the Black Eagle. So do you have any other document which confirms that they are the same?

Also, isn't the picture a civil Black Eagle Medal?

With good wishes,

James

Dear Sir,

According to the son of the awarded, his father called his medal ?Bese dhe Bashkim?. You know that ?Bese dhe Bashkim? is the motto of the Black Eagle Order. I know also another document, that calls this medal so (see attach).

I think that Kliartmann-Neubecker is wrong when writes that ?all the medals were accorded by Prince in emigration in 1918?.

I have found in Albania, at least three bronze medals and one silver medal. Heaton-Armstrong also writes that Wilhelm awarded Black Eagle insignia, especially the medals.

Regards,

Artan

Artan,

This is very interesting indeed.

Any details on this "Military Medal"? I have not heard of it before.

Cheers,

James

Dear James,

This ?Medaille Militaire en Argent? is the Silver Medal of the Black Eagle Order (see attach). Note: The date of the document is "2.IX.1914", only a day before the departure of Prince Wied from Albania, on 03.09.1914. The awarded person, was the official translator of Prince in Albania and the decoration was as a last recognition of the Prince to his faithful collaborators.

Regards,

Artan

Artan, THANK YOU FOR THIS PHOTO!! You have a treasure trove! I visited several places in Tirana (Skanderbeg Square Museum, old Palace, Ministry of Defence, etc) several years ago and found little useful information. Perhaps the Wied archives contain some information but so far it is impossible to visit them. Thank you again!

Dear Sir,

I am still excited for the last found in Albania, here attached. I found it two days ago and is propriety of the san of the person named there. For your next trip in Albania call me before.

Best regards.

Artan

Hi all,

Can anyone help me to identify these strange object in coast of Durres?

Regards,

Artan

Hi all,

Can anyone help me to identify these cannons of Albanian army?

Regards,

Artan