Mervyn Mitton

Helen - lovely post of the carving. Sorry I'm late answering - thought I had at the time ! I think it is meant to be a milk holder - I mentioned that they had larger ones in the kraal. However, I suppose it could also be for water - but, not I think, beer. With Isikoko's, I am by no means certain that they would stay on if the hair had died - this is why more research needs to be carried out. So very little is known about them - I was 'talking' to a member this morning on Ingxothchas (brass arm bands awards ) - same problem - they are so rare that modern Zulus have never even heard of them. This problem is not limited to tribes around the World. I have British pieces in my collection, that again, have been forgotten and are only likely to be found in a museum - and only then, if more than one exists... I hope you will be able to keep posting more of these early pieces - they are very interesting. Also - said he hopefully - did you find any truncheons or, tipstaffs ? Very best wishes Mervyn

Thanks Mossy - another very interesting post. How do you find all these to South Australia - do you have connections there ? When I lived in Aust., Sth. Aust. was always known as the 'wowser' State ... it was just so 'boring'.... As for 'boo' to Federation, it was the only thing that held Aust. together. Perth is 2000 miles from Adelaide and another 1000 to civilisation in Melbourne !! I always expect to read one day that W.A. has become it's own republic. Sth. Africa is a little the same in this regard - a few major cities strung out around a big country. Hope you are working on that posting on old exploratory travels in central Aust.?

Absolutely amazing that so much material was produced during his period - how long did Saddam hold power for ? A collection like this will be very important in years to come, since so many of the smaller items will be lost or, forgotten.

Very nice etching to the blade. Pity that the paint on the scabbard is chipped. I have just bought - what I think is a German NCO's sword - either s/steel or, chromed - no etching, and again the paintwork on the scabbard is poor. So, a question - should we strip the scabbard and re-spray ? I have seen this done succesfully with German bayonets.

Thankyou Emmanuel - No, when I lived in Sierra Leone it was very primitive - but, safe and I was able to travel around the Country. I think - as we get older - that we all regret the things we didn't collect. Medals that could have been bought for a few ?'s in those days are a fortune today. Megan, what would an approx. cost be for a set like this today - they can't be cheap to make ? Mervyn

Thankyou Ian - I could remember that there is an inscription, but could not read it on the photo. Do you think the last word is the village name or, area ? Where did you get yours ? I think I got these two at the Newark Antiques Fair - you should get a good price for Ann now !

I don't think there is a set number - I would doubt more than one or two in the 19th. C. However, WW2 would be a different matter and I expect more would be appointed. What we don't know is how the numbering works - is it per reign - per century - or, from the early days ? Rick, thankyou for that background - I have never actually done any research on it - it hangs on a wall in my study in Bournemouth. However, they are a Royal Appointment - now based on recommendations from the Foreign Office. The title and M.C. - probably wounded as well - would account for the King accepting him - has the 'right' background. There are just so many rare items that used to be in regular usage - I am fortunate to have so many examples in the collection - although many have now been sold. I do wonder sometimes, if people realise just uncommon some are ??

A very nice decoration - is it silver or, white metal? Do you have any pictures of it being worn or, how many have been issued? I wish other members would add pictures and awards for their local police forces - or, ones that they come in contact with from their collections.

Megan - a nice set and attractive. Were they made in UK ? When I ran the Ad. Agency in Sierra Leone,in the 1960's, I was supposed to' look after' Gambia, but it was a pest hole either side of a mosquito invested river, so I refused to go after the first visit. Seems to have changed now - but how visitors go on holiday without all the vaccinations I don't know.

I see I bought this in 1985 for ?440 ($650) - a lot of money then...

Not Police, this was a difficult one to place. I think the closest is this sub-forum, since this badge gives diplomatic immunity - anywhere in the World. Known as the King's or, Queen's Messenger Badge, it dates back to medieval days. The Monarch used to have his own judicial court - known as the King's Bench and to execute his commands, a King's Messenger was despatched to arrest or, otherwise give instructions. The first record of a Messenger is a man - John Norman - who was appointed in in 1485 by King Richard 3rd. - later defeated at the battle of Bosworth Field. These first messengers would have worn a tabard - or, sleeveless over tunic - which would have had the Royal Arms in bullion embroidery. To disobey them would have meant execution - they were directly giving the King's Orders. The greyhound symbol dates back to pre1660 - when Charles 2nd. was in exile in France. He needed to send a message and the man said - 'How will they know me'? On a table in front of the King was a silver bowl, with four decorative greyhounds standing proud above the rim - this was apparently always in the presence of the King and was therefore , well known to all courtiers. The King reached forwards and broke off a greyhound as a guarantee that the message was from him. From that date the King's Messenger always wore a silver greyhound around his neck. Later a badge with the Royal Arms in enamel - with the greyhound suspended beneath was worn. This dated from the George 2nd. or, 3rd. When the Monarch became a Constitutional one, the need for a personal Messenger diminished and they became diplomatic carriers for the most secret and important despatches. They actually travelled around the World by ship and later planes - and still do so. Their despatches are usually handcuffed to them and two 1st. Class seats are always reserved - one for him and one for the 'bag'. With modern communications they are not so important - but, they do still exist and carry out their duties. The badge is still worn around the neck on important occasions. This rare example is for Major Sherston-Baker M.C. - who was appointed by George 6th. - so, he served in the War period. The number 51 is engraved on the back - in the silver gilt. I am not sure if the number is from early days - and therefore, a continuing one - or, if that is the number in each Reign. I suspect this last - a recent Parliamentary question on numbers showed 15 for Queen Elizabeth - but, no-one was sure. The Medal Year Book shows values - they are completely wrong - I don't know who gives these figures, I think they guess.. A George 3rd. example - pre 1800 sold for over ?30000 ($50000) some years ago. This one - with it's accreditation , is worth at least ?2500-?3000 ($4200-4800). The one thing you can say - with certainty - is that they are rare and very collectable.

Dear Douglas - I share your frustration. You posted a rare and very interesting weapon - with a background to a German firearm of great importance and I am surprised that more members have not commented. I think the simple truth , is that there are not that many firearm and sword collectors on GMIC. Certainly, there are experts - that is very obvious when you read their posts - but, they don't always feel qualified or, wish to comment. I find this also to be the case on Navy and RAF. Pity - but at least a lot have looked. I was thinking of replying , but I get a little embarrased seeing my name keep coming up. Anyway - thankyou for posting this weapon - I certainly enjoyed reading the info. I always remember an exhibition I helped put-on when I was in the Met. - the City of London Police loaned us the original weapons re-covered after the famous siege of Sidney Street in 1910 (three policemen were shot dead) - these included an original Mauser. Best wishes Mervyn

Have managed to separate them - so will post now to keep them together. Strictly speaking these are civil - rather than police - however, the similarity to British regalia is very apparent. The one thing you have to admire the British for - is total arrogance !! We knew we were right - and never deviated from that opinion - why do I say this ? Quite simply - these were given by the British administration in Nigeria as status symbols for THIRD class chiefs... Only we - could designate someone as a third class - but, still give him an impressive staff for authority !! These date back to the reign of King Edward 7th. (1901-1910) and they are brass ended , with a crown surmounting. They actually look very impressive when polished. I have never seen the badge of office for a 2nd. class - however, I understand it was a badge and not a staff - perhaps Peter can help on this ? For a first class chief the top was in solid silver and was - surmounted by a large cast silver hippoptamus (this may have varied). The oldest stick and umbrella company in England is opposite Holborn Police Station - they made them for the Govt. and have one on display. Apart from that one, mine are the only other ones I have seen - if anyone can help with pictures or, more info. it would be good.

Have just had a camera disc sent from UK which has some more pictures of the collection. Unfortunately items on this frame have been put together - for clarity, I will discuss them separately, but this will mean showing the illustration again - not a problem, they are different Countries. We are looking at the right hand staff - the largest one and without anything on top. The original contract to trade with India , was given by Charles 2nd. in the 17th. C. to the East India Company and they ended up establishing it as a colony with it's own police,army and navy. After the Indian Mutiny Britain took direct control and the EIC lost power. Whilst organised police forces were in the larger centres, they copied the English system of having a constable in villages. His only weapon was the LATHI (pronouced lassie) which - without the brass is still used in India today to control riots. The staff could be used to strike down - prod in the stomach - or, swept at knee level to keep crowds back. A fearsome weapon in the right hands. This example almost certainly dates back to the early 19th C. and is rare. I expect they could still be bought in the markets - or, at least the brass heads, but I doubt the bamboo would have survived. Should anyone have any pictures or, further details it would be of interest.

The whole concept of policing was new - and the idea of the constable always being available was quite radical. Since he had to be on duty at all times he needed to be able to show when he was 'officially' on street duty - however, if anything happened. then he put himself 'back on duty' and did what was necessary. This still applies today - Robin, Leigh Coldstream and other retired Police - will tell you that they were always 'on duty' and were expected to act accordingly. An example would be if you were on holiday and saw a serious crime - then you took action as a police officer - since England and Wales are jurisdiction areas - Scotland being separate - then that was the area you had authority. Most police I knew would not become involved unless it was very serious - but, in the Met. you usually got a Commissioner's Commendation for acting out of your area.

Very old Zulu beer pot (thought of Chris immediately !!). Made from woven reeds it is totally 'water' proofed. The small cover on the top has a bead decoration and was intended to keep flys and insects out of the beer. They made the beer in larger containers and - as needed - put it into these smaller containers. Beer is not as we know it - or, as alcoholic - it is brewed from maize and is nutritious. I have not had an answer from the Museum re. the Isikokos (head rings) - I think we have come across an important item of knowledge - Helen, would you feel a paper is justified - and more importantly, would you be interested ? I will continue to post old pieces from time-to-time - Google seem to be enjoying them !!!

This fine drawing shows a P.C. of 'H' Division, as he might have looked in the first days of the Metropolitan Police. The arm band shows the original horizontal stripes. I have always wondered - did any other Police around the World, use a duty armband ? Drawing copyright - Bob Marrion

When the first civilian police force in the World - the London Metropolitan police - marched out from New Scotland Yard in 1829, their uniform was based on the civilian dress of the day. Totally different working conditions existed in those early days and it was clearly laid down in Instructions, that the constable was to wear his uniform at all times and he was, therefore, on duty at all times. The difference between parading on duty and being on 'off' duty , was to be shown by an arm band worn around the left wrist of the tunic. The first ones were horizontal in their striping and only had a few rings - by the time I joined they were vertical and in alternate stripes of blue and white. The top one was my first issue in 1967 and was of a cloth - the replacement was nylon. They were discontinued in - I think 1972 or,73.. They were not the easiest things to put-on in a hurry - it took practise to have them lie flat around the cuff. The City of London Police had red and white stripes and still wear them - the only Force - to my knowledge - who still keep up their traditions.