Mervyn Mitton

During WW2, with the shortage of metal, a number of units were given badges made from an early type of plastic. Whilst adequate at the time, they proved not to be stable and became brittle and broke easily. You still see a number for corps., but not so often to regt's. I am not sure for exact dates - either issuing or, withdrawel. On the back is the maker's name - A.STANLEY & SONS. WALSALL. I bought a small badge collection this morning and this was among them.

This was the Khedive's Grand Vizier - or, Prime Minister. The print - also, Vanity Fair , January 6th. 1883. The print is entitled ' Ahmed Arabi the Egyptian ' He caused a lot of the trouble.

The Khedive of Egypt. This was one of Vanity Fair's full page drawings. We started the Egyptian Campaign in 1882 and it continued for the next five years - ending up with our repulse from saving Gen. Gordon at Khartoum. The Khedive's name was Tewfik and this print is from 20th. January 1883. They are hard to come-by now and very sought after by collectors. The medal is dated 1882 and is the GSM.

Jonathan - the spine number is - 79893 - on a similar sword, also BSAP is the number - 79147. Mervyn

Yes, I thik it does. Will look tomorrow - it's one of my mornings at the shop. Mind you, a lot of these issue type swords just had a number that represented the unit.

An 'ordinary' MC group will sell at auction for between ?800 and ?1500 - more if it has special service. How do you price two brothers and the complete set of mementoes, extra service awards and papers. As PK said - the Rosary alone almost brings tears. The only thing I have seen that was more poignant,was a small bible - where each brother in turn had carried it- until KIA. Three brothers in turn , had inscribed the flyleaf - all died ! PK is right - they will never sell them- so, insurance of at least ?10,000.

I remember buying this lovely fire-gilt helmet plate and buckle, at a Sotheby's auction - some 40 years ago. They were described as being the pattern for the Governor of a British Military prison. I did, subsequently - find confirmation of this. However - I know very little about the Military Prison system - or, how it was governed. To have it's own pattern of helmet plate means that it was run separately from normal military authority. I thought it would make a good thread to go into the background of the prisons, how they were run, punishments etc.. This must be a fairly rare set - I have never seen another.

British South Africa Police 1897 pattern sword - used by an Asst. Commissioner prior to U.D.I.. Didn't have any particular markings to the BSAP - however, only they, and the Rhodesian Light Infantry, carried a black scabbard. The BSAP were a para-military force and regarded as one - if not the - best colonial police forces. After 1980 they became The Zimbabwe Police. This example is nice, since it retains the frog.

Amazing - 7 in the photo are wearing them - out of 59 an 1/8th!! I see padre got himself in the middle. Leigh - post you passing out group photo and I'll do the same !!

Ah ! But don't forget Dmitry, the hilt is almost identical to the cavalry pattern of the time - incl. the rubberised grip and it was a very battered example. I didn't have the blade length and thought it might have been 1) cut down - ( commonly done to fight polar bears !!!) 2) perspective of the photo - causing fore-shortening.

If it is a modern copy - as they are turning them out in India and Turkey - then there will never be a known maker. Had it been made prior to 1922 - when Britain went off the gold standard - then technically, you could have been hanged.

I have just googled 'Black Maria' and the name come from the US ! There is a a good site showing a picture of the larger type of van - still in use today in the concept of sep. internal cells. However, remember, that this panel is from another area and was on the door. The one illust. is the same cypher and Crown as mine - but, on the side of the waggon. www.met.police.uk/history/black_marias.htm

Dmitry - your answer adds a lot to the previous answers. If the Fenians came out of the US, then this would be an accesible and reasonably priced weapon. With the provenance of where it was found - and now an identification of the weapon - Brian has a valuable item that could well be of museum interest. Brian, document all of this , to go with the sword. British 'paddy waggons' - known in UK as 'Black Marias' ( and I'm not sure why - prob. goes back hundreds of years ) were horse drawn. Usually four horses if they were to carry many prisoners and two for the smaller ones. This would have been a smaller one - with two doors. Weight was obviously a consideration and canvas was used a lot - however, it may well have been stretched over a wooden panel and taken off this for framing. Sergeant Brett was inside the van, with the two prisoners. They would have been heavily shackled - the very least would have been leg irons and handcuffs. But, they could have had them in full assize chains. That was a set with leg irons, the chains running up to two arm chains with cuffs + two extra chains with 28lb. (13kilos) cannonballs welded on. Each County had it's own Assize Court and prisoners had to be sent to the County town - from long distances - for trial. The only way to escape was with outside help - as in this case.

Always hard to date these pieces accurately - the 'old girl' reigned for so long. Also, despite regulations, local custom could always 'step-in'. They were very autocratic in those days. The gold stripes on the belt that you show were almost badges of rank ? I like the old label on yours - so often they get torn off. Do you know the history of the last example you show. Usually when the two 'prickers' are on the cross belt , it showed infantry - since the prickers represented the cartridge piercers.

Leigh - if you look closely, I think you can see that it is embroidery or, woven. It is not bullion. I had an expert collector of headgear in the shop yeasterday - a member of my old Militaria Society - and he said there was no question about it being genuine and of the period. We will alwys take it back .

Stuart - Fantastic !! I read your IM before opening - I will hold back on my 1st Dragoon Helmet for now. Some 35 years ago I decided to start a serious collection - the choice was between Helmets or, Police. Still in the Met. then , I decided on Police - partly because helmets take-up space. I have often wished I had made the other decision - and seeing your collection - and it is obviously only part - I wish I could have afforded both. You should put your collection on that display sub-forum, where all members could see it . Mervyn

Tony - that's certainly a lot more than I knew ! Were they allowed to wear them ? Did they get any special priviledges ? Apart from not having hangovers...

Will - you are so right when you say not much is known about them. They wore a nondescript blue uniform and a cap. For which this is the badge - and a nice example. I think they were set-up when Natal Police were discontinued in 1913 and the S.A.P. took over. They were called Borough Police and I think were based on Durban. I wonder if anyone has a picture? And more info. would be good - I wonder if Brett knows anything of them? p.s. The name - in Zulu - means ' Place of the Elephants'

I can't place it - looks vaguely like the issue to army waggon driver's - but the blade is too long. I think Jonathan - who knows his swords - should take a look.

There are quite a few old police posters around - but not that many in good condition. I bought about 20 varied ones from a an advert in Ex. & Mart. Turned out an old Sgt. had 'found' them in a cupboard (read station store) burnt the edges to make them 'look old' and tried to sell them on a market stall. Burning the edges of course made them look fakes - which they aren't. I had to have them all framed to cover the edges. I have always assumed that a poster from the Midlands would have been sent to other Forces , if the crime was serious enough.

1851 POLICE POSTER - they mainly went on the notice board outside the station. ?100 must be worth at least ?10,000 today.

Brian - this has been a very interesting post - you mentioned Met. S.C.'s - I am attaching the full set - Blue was the senior one. Sorry about the shop tag, I can't take it all out.