Mervyn Mitton

All three of these pictures have interesting features. With the first two, the truncheon is suspended by a leather holder - the early Br.Police used to carry the truncheon outside of the uniform, in a leather holster. The rifle looks like either a Lee Enfield or, the earlier Lee Metford - both of which would be logical in India. However, the bayonet looks like it has a ring mounting ? Perhaps a firearms expert could give an opinion?

Leigh - no markings - however, I wouldn't be surprised it it isn't pre-war (1930's). They didn't go back to full uniform until - I think - the fifties. You are probably right about anodised aluminium, everything is for show - quality has gone. I think Stuart is the person to tell us for certain? Merv.

The British are never to blame - never have been and , never will be.....

Hi - 'TS'. There were different editions - this one is the large size volume. Vol 1 - page 158 - Nov 28 1899. Hope this helps - you haven't got one of the helmets have you?? Mervyn

Shire Reeve was the older Saxon term - it became Sheriff and he was the King's representitive for the County.He ceased to have military power in Edward 6th, reign. Now, the Queen's rep. is the Lord Lieutenant - he wears a special uniform and there is one - with a deputy - for each County. She is always met by him on Her arrival in each County. The Hue & Cry comes from the duty all Freemen had to uphold the law and to raise the alarm if they saw a crime being commited - if they failed to do this , they could be punished. The Posse Comitatus - or, gathering of the people, could be called by the Sheriff to hunt down an offender - again only Freemen could take part. I have never quite understood how these old titles came into being in the States. I assume it came with the early settlers, but, even with that explanation, it is not clear why they used these words. Even the title constable - probably, came from the Latin 'comes stabuli' or, master of the horse. Obviously a title of importance. With the middle ages a constable had become the man in charge of a castle - and there is still the title of Constable of the Tower. Appointed by the Queen and usually someone like a retired Field Marshall. Petty Constables were part of the old leet courts and later became Parish Constables. The word Police was not used officially, until the Dublin Police Act of 1792. Now..... what has this to do with an American police cap???

Shire Reeve was the older Saxon term - it became Sheriff and he was the King's representitive for the County.He ceased to have military power in Edward 6th, reign. Now, the Queen's rep. is the Lord Lieutenant - he wears a special uniform and there is one - with a deputy - for each County. She is always met by him on Her arrival in each County. The Hue & Cry comes from the duty all Freemen had to uphold the law and to raise the alarm if they saw a crime being commited - if they failed to do this , they could be punished. The Posse Comitatus - or, gathering of the people, could be called by the Sheriff to hunt down an offender - again only Freemen could take part. I have never quite understood how these old titles came into being in the States. I assume it came with the early settlers, but, even with that explanation, it is not clear why they used these words. Even the title constable - probably, came from the Latin 'comes stabuli' or, master of the horse. Obviously a title of importance. With the middle ages a constable had become the man in charge of a castle - and there is still the title of Constable of the Tower. Appointed by the Queen and usually someone like a retired Field Marshall. Petty Constables were part of the old leet courts and later became Parish Constables. The word Police was not used officially, until the Dublin Police Act of 1792. Now..... what has this to do with an American police cap???

I sometimes wish that I had collected helmets and not police - there is something special about them. This splendid example is an O/R's for the Blues and Royals of The Household Cavalry. This amalgamated regt. was formed in 1969 from the Royal Horse Guards and the The Royal Dragoons. There are ,of course, two regiments - The Life Guards and The Blues and Royals. The Life Guards wear red tunics and a white 'plume' - The Blues and Royals , a blue tunic and a red 'plume'. A small point of some interest, is that the original carbine that was carried in a bucket, by the left leg - was called a 'Dragon' - hence Dragoon.

Thankyou, Helen - they were all interesting - even the plain ones. The ivory handled example is very special - I would suspect ,either for a very senior person or, perhaps for temple rituals. The one you found is an almost replica of the one I posted - except it is very much smaller. Perhaps it was all part of the ritual dance - as you say, we must hope a member will come forward with more info.?

Helen, may I be your assistant - I love museum basements?? When I was at boarding school, at Geelong in Victoria,Aust.,I ran the school museum. I approached the curator at the Melbourne museum and thay used to let me spend an afternoon in the basement, going through all the old weaponry. I would put a hundred ,or so, together and my Father would collect them and bring them to school. Used to make great exhibitions, the only time we had any numbers. I did meet Field Marshall Lord Slim, and his wife, when they were brought around. A great honour as I deeply admired him - in my humble opinion he was the best commander in WW2. (just as well no-one is reading this,I'd be in real trouble.)

The overall length - stern to bow sprit - is 30 " ( 74cm). I actually brought several back as gifts. They make a special strong cardboard case and they travelled well. The business of making them is a major one for Mauritius and they export all over the World - but, much cheaper on the Island. (Just costs an arm and a leg to get there!)

Mike, your post here is - I'm sure - of great interest. There are similarities in duties wherever you live in the World, but it is good to see them detailed. Mind you, whilst I'm impressed with your knowledge on Br. police origins, I shan't tell you any more about Sheriffs !! By the way - where did a 'posse' come from??? I think I prefer the hours you used to keep - we had a three shift system (now all changed) and did 6a.m. to 2p.m. and 2p.m.to 10.p.m. for six alternate weeks and then, three weeks of nights 10p.m.-6a.m.. I could always understand why so many Br. police marriages collapse - they just never see each other. Once again, thanks for a great post.

Hi - Brett. Been there, done that !! I think the older members just have to put up with mistakes from us newish members. I'm so glad you were able to enter the detasils of your Grandfather (I had remembered him as your uncle) - that is living history. Hope to see you one day soon. mervyn

That's the medal Brian - now we need to know exactly what they were trying to accomplish in Canada - and were the two that escaped involved ? Paul - I always wondered what they thought in Ireland - do you have any other info. on reactions , songs, etc., I would like to put it with the panel. The panel was a court exhibit and part of the door that was forced to release the prisoners ( a two door van). They obviously showed the door damage and when the case finished the lawyer had the panel framed.

Cheshire were the main County Force to wear the shako , as a helmet - and not for a long period. That doesn't mean that some of the small forces that sprung-up might not have copied them. The first card has a magnificent crown - it can be dated to between 1870's and 1901. Edward V11 was married then and the previous Princess of Wales had been George 2 or,3. There is a book on Police helmet plates - a former supt. of mine V. Wilkinson co-authored it - they are selling them at discount through PICA. (Police Insignia Collectors Assoc.)

Could it be the 1897 jubilee - he looks the right age - even, the golden jubilee?

The origin of 'cop' is held to be from the French word - copeur ? To hold or , arrest. As you say Leigh, we have been known by many names. 'Old Bill' and 'Peeler' from Sir Robert Peel, founder, whilst Home Secretary + all of the others you list. The favourite in the East End of London was to call us 'John' - as in ' Hey! John - got the time?' The answer from me used to be - 'yes'. '' Now stand up straight, take your hands out of your pockets, spit the gum out and now, turn your pockets out.'' By the time this was finished we had forgotten the original question and they weren't too keen on being funny in the future.

Leigh - thanks for taking all this trouble - and to everyone else - what a pity I didn't know him, would have saved all this effort. I agree with you re: the shape of the Crown. This was the one that was in use at the end of the 19th. C - and carried over in the early period of Ed.7. With regard to the medal - I think it is oval, with two bars - because of the big suspender it appears to hang ,lower and, therefore, looks oval. When he was commissioned, I was told by my Father that he was transferred to another Regt. - as, is I believe, the usual case. I had the Derbyshire Regt. fixed in my mind, and then remembered the family also, mentioning the Northants. Looking through a jewellers loop, the collar badges have most resemblance to the Northants, - a castle, with three turrets. I am sorry that I can,t be more sure - my memory has failed me in this case - it is 35 years since my father died. Merv.

Is the numeral printed or, brass ? Looking forward to your book arriving may I do a review for the Forum ?

Thankyou for correcting me - this is information that may be available from many sources - but, tends to be overlooked because it does not form part of your own history also, because a name will 'stick' in your mind. I think we need info. on Canadian historical events. I am going to post shortly, the history of a man who helped form the North West Mounted Police in 1873. Mervyn

That's interesting info. - I don't know a lot about their early history - only, that I dodged their bombs in the early 70's ! ( had a bomb left in a building on my beat, I had to stay there and evacuate the building - all 20 stories of it!! Sir Trevor MacDonald turned up to report for ITV - never even spoke to me !!! I missed a comma on the names of those hung - it was three - not two. According to the write-up all three were hung together - in front of the prison. Imagine the crowds.

Terrific, Brian. Will look forward to more posts. One question - the photo - was that in UK or, Canada ?