Norm F

Hi Gordon,

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

I presume these go with the shoulder straps you posted here?

Would these police be from standard Navy personnel or would they be recruited into Navy positions from a civilian police force?

Best regards,

---Norm

Back of B H Mayer Minesweeper .

Not so often seen with "26" maker mark .

Jan Arne

Hi Jan Arne,

Nice badges, especially that rare BECO!

Only the "Mayer" isn't actually a Mayer. That's the type attributed to Juncker and someone's done something odd to the pin.

It nicely matches the examples in this thread.

Best regards,

---Norm

Hi Jan Arne,

You always find such interesting additions for your collection -- truly a master collector.

What's the story behind the peculiar "bug-eye" of this Funcke & Brueninghaus eagle? I notice that this variant eagle head is quite different from the example in the GCA database and from Lorenzo Brown's posted example here.

Nevertheless, the badge seems to match in every other way -- two different production dies perhaps?

Best regards,

---Norm

Come to think of it, this revelation also casts doubt upon the unmarked Deumer Minesweepers with this same setup, since now it's possible they could be by G.W.L. or supplied to G.W.L. by Deumer. A close relationship between the Wegerhoffs and the Deumers seems likely.

Best regards,

---Norm

Hi Norm,

There are minesweepers (with the vertical needle pin) made by Deumer that are marked (L/11). I think that's why the concensus of the unmarked ones are also Deumer. The die characteristics front and back are consistent on their minesweepers as well.

Best Regards,

Tim

Here's a marked tombak piece with the L/11; note it has a replaced catched.

Hi Tim,

Yes I know there are Deumer L/11 marked both vertical pin and horizontal pin minesweepers with the same die characteristics. My point was that if G.W.L. and Deumer shared dies for the Destroyer or had some sort of working relationship that resulted in them both marketing near-identical badges, and since they're both known to use the same type of reverse hardware on various badges, then the unmarked minesweepers could just as well be by G.W.L as by Deumer.

Possible scenarios:

1) G.W.L. produces the Destroyer and the Minesweeper badges and sometimes marks the Destroyer, while supplying both badges to Deumer who occasionally marks the minesweepers.

2) The reverse: Deumer produces the Destroyer and the Minesweeper badges and sometimes marks the minesweeper, while supplying both badges to G.W.L. who occasionally marks the Destroyers.

3) They each have their own very similar production dies made from the same punch, resulting in two lines of unmarked badges that we need to tease out by very subtle differences in obverse details and by hardware variations (difficult since they both used standard Luedenscheid-available hardware components.

4) or G.W.L. never gets into the minesweeper business and content themselves with the other KM and other service combat badges they make...

Best regards,

---Norm

I'm not a major fan of identifying unmarked badges by the fittings used, so consider this one as by an unkown maker.

However, given the fittings used, would think that Deumer could be in the frame.

Nice early Tombak piece whoever made it !

Hi Gordon,

Very nice find (as usual)!

Interestingly, very very similar to a G.W.L. Destroyer, another Luedenscheid maker. (I don't have any umlauts on this computer!)

And I see what you mean, this hardware indeed matches Deumer's maker marked vertical pin Minesweeper badges.

The hardware usually found on the G.W.L. marked Destroyers matches that used on Deumer's horizontal pin minesweepers, so these two firms obviously either had the same supplier or shared between them. Makes it hard to know if this badge is by Deumer or G.W.L., or supplied to Deumer by G.W.L?

Come to think of it, this revelation also casts doubt upon the unmarked Deumer Minesweepers with this same setup, since now it's possible they could be by G.W.L. or supplied to G.W.L. by Deumer. A close relationship between the Wegerhoffs and the Deumers seems likely.

Best regards,

---Norm

Thanks for the reply Norm. Just trying to someday have a MS fleet to rival yours.

Richard

I'll never have a real fleet since I've limited myself to the very narrow range of unmarked tombak minesweepers! For me it's more fun to study the badges, their historical context and manufacture, and discuss them, than to actually amass them in quantity. But it's sure nice to see other people's collections!

Cheers.

---Norm

I believe that this zinc minesweeper badge is OK, so does anyone have a clue who the maker might have been? I've had it kicking around for many years and it is well made.

Richard

front:

Hi Richard,

How do you come up with these?

Seems like some of the flashing around the water plume and the eagle head was left behind, making it difficult to identify it's "fingerprints" so one can't be sure, but judging by the hardware, obverse design and exterior outlines, I'd hazard a guess it was another Juncker mis-strike sort of like that tombak one you had which was discussed at: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=41022

Perhaps a bit of a quality control problem at Juncker's when distracted by the bombing?

Best regards,

---Norm

Hi Paul,

Check out this thread for a summary of the evidence supporting Juncker as the maker of these minesweepers:

Unmarked Minesweeper

Best regards,

---Norm

Pic. Jäger is on the right and is wearing the minesweeper badge and Götz Baur is in the back. I believe the officer in the middle is the ship's engineer.

Very nice grouping Paul. And a very nice C.E. Juncker minesweeper badge with provenance.

Best regards,

---Norm

Hi Paul,

I hope you find answers to your query. In the meantime would you be willing to show us pictures of the U-boot and minesweeper badges?

It's always nice to see attributed pieces.

Best regards,

---Norm

I just thought I'd post my example to this old thread with the comment that despite the different hardware, based on matching die characteristics and bulk, this is the early tombak version of the later zinc so-called "unmarked AS in triangle".

Best regards,

---Norm

The obverse design and the hinge suggest to me that this badge is the "Petz & Lorenz" type,although i do not recall seeing an example with that type of pin and retaining catch before?

Regards,Martin.

Yes, it looks like a good match to the Petz & Lorenz posted by Philippe on GCA, with the hardware that looks like their Sport's badge. The pin on the one posted by Paul is slightly more square and shorter and the catch is slightly thinner on the direct view of the reverse, but same basic design. The side view of the catch should look something like this:

Actually, the "Schickle" design does also exist in Zinc so there doesn't appear to have been any technical difficulties in using the original dies. If Schickle went out of business long before Zinc was used, and Mayer chanmged to this other design for their Zinc badges, then the "Schickle" design in Zinc may well have been from Zimmermann, the other firm that used this style.

Of course the original tooling may have become damnaged at some point forcing then to use a new die.

Hi Gordon,

Very interesting reasoning. I like the idea of Zimmerman for the zinc version since it makes sense it would be someone who rarely marked his badges. Apparently Mayer would have been tempted to mark one here and there as was his wont, so the absence of Mayer marked zinc Schickle-designs would seem to rule him out of the picture. Maybe Zimmerman got Schickle's master die while Mayer only got a production die which wore out...who knows.

Cheers.

---Norm

Nice example ! Strange that they would change to an entirely different design when moving from Tombak to Zinc.

Presumably something happened to the Schickle master die making it unsuitable for zinc production, forcing them to come up with another source of die?

Regards,

---Norm

Definitely another book to add to my collection. Looking really good !

I can hardly wait.

Some tiny points for the proof readers: I noticed on the samples posted, that for each maker the city of production was appended after a comma, except it was omitted for Funcke & Brueninhaus by accident I suspect.

Also, for the F&B 1st pattern S-boot there's a discrepancy between the text and the photo caption describing the catch and retaining hook. In the text it says flat wire catch and flat wire retaining hook, whereas in the caption for the closeups it says flat metal catch and round wire hook which matches the photo. I'm being nit-picky I know. I'm really looking forward to ordering a copy!

Best regards,

---Norm

I've been studying these S&L's lately (both buntmetall and zinc) and I was fortunate to acquire this tombak example in rather nice condition! These badges are remarkably similar in design to the unmarked Junker MS but from different dies and with different cutouts around the eagle. It's interesting that S&L initially pictured a Schwerin/Deumer design minesweeper badge in their 1941 catalogue but then produced this design instead.

Best regards,

---Norm

Well you learn something new every day,I've never seen a badge quite like this with the amount of pitting and all but I stand corrected,good find,cheers,

Paul

Hi Paul,

I don't wish to mis-represent myself as a seasoned collector. I'm just an obsessive neophyte in the past year, but I stand on the shoulders of giants like Gordon!

Best regards,

---Norm

sides

Those external server linked files seem so temporary to me, so I've taken the liberty of uploading the images.

Looks good to me, just well-worn and dinged up.

This looks like a good example of the early unmarked Schwerin U-boats with the reversed hinge block and long pin quite possibly produced by Schwerin for S&L, as pictured in the 1940 S&L catalogue.

Best regards,

---Norm

Here is a close up of the first Argentinian obtained Graf Spee.

I will post the measuremements when I can find my ruler. It is greater than 150cm though. Regards,

Justin

2dresq

Hi Justin,

Any chance you could get a sharper closeup. You can see on mine how that vertical thread should be crossed by black loops of the warp (arrows). On yours the metal thread has either cut through the black threads out or it was manufacturing defect -- I suspect the former. Your tally is certainly the same as mine since it's that length and the same font type - private purchase, worn when off duty, or kept as a keepsake, or both.

I suspect your 3rd tally was likely official Navy issue, but it's hard to say for sure given it's been cropped to 80 cm.

Regards,

---Norm

I now have 2 more Admiral Graf Spee tallies. I upgraded.

The upper one was my first tally which I purchased from german ebay from a seller in Argentina.

The other two come from a German seller. One is 88cm long and the other is full length 156cm long.

Regards,

Justin

2dresq

Hi Justin,

Very nice. What's the length of your first version from Argentina?

Cheers.

---Norm

P.S. That vertical free loop of gold thread seen on the first tally on the second "f" in "ff" is odd. Could we see a closeup of that detail? Wondering if it was a weaving flaw or if it pulled through the black threads of the warp.

are the uni's Heer or KM Marine Infantrie.... ? I have a couple of pics in March of 45 when several members of S-Boot Tender Tsingtau were on land and the members are wearing similar attire and have in the case of two members side by side, one wearing the Mine badge the other late war-2nd pattern S-Boot badge.

E ~

Hi Erich,

No they're not Marineartillerie. You can tell by the insignia (boards, collar tabs) and the buttons, not to mention the Heer shooting lanyard. Can you post the photo you're describing?

Best regards,

---Norm

Not that unusual Norm,

here is one that i have showing the BB award on a Heer uniform.

Gordon pointed out to me when i posted this photo that he was probably a member of the Merchant Navy when the badge was awarded and then later drafted into the Heer when they needed more "manpower".

BTW,Ulsterman,great photo.

Regards,Martin.

Very interesting. Thanks Martin. And now looking around I also see this photo of an SS man wearing the Blockade Breaker as well:

http://www.wehrmacht...unner_badge.htm

Cheers.

---Norm

P.S. Nice minesweeper in wear there, Erich B.

wedding shot-1944

Am I seeing that correctly? Is that a photo of an Army guy wearing a KM Blockade Breaker badge?

What would be the story behind that?

Best regards,

---Norm