Hendrik

Hello again Tim, I think both are likely to be genuine. Various styles do exist and note also the hilts of the swords are touching the cross on the one and not on the other of your crosses. Such differences are in my opinion due to several manufacturers, both in France itself but also in the then French colonies, producing these at the time. Veteran and Bison, to name but those two, are far more experts on this than I am and I hope they will chip in with their opinions ... Cheers, Hendrik

Unlike the Leopold Order, the Leopold II Order has no divisions and thus no crossed swords below the crown suspension. The crossed swords device on the ribbon in the left picture is the correct one for Belgian orders awarded to WWI veterans, the device in the right picture is not. The changeover from unilingual to bilingual legends took place in 1951-52. And, the ribbon device is supposed to have the swords pointing upwards ... Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Tim, The one with the swords underneath the crown is the "military division" of the order, the one without these swords being the "civil division". The crossed swords device on the ribbon indicates a WWI veteran recipient. Such a recipient has to be considered as serving in the military during the war and, hence, the crossed swords device should only be present on the military division decorations. Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Valgor, I also have no doubt the recipient was entitled to the palm device - maybe he lost the original one, maybe an unscrupulous merchant sold him the Croix de Guerre with the devices which he had at hand when the recipient got around to purchasing the medals he was entitled to ... I guess we'll never know exactly. For the sake of clarity, Belgian chivalry orders were awarded to WWI veterans, officers, NCO's and EM's alike. Thus bars with one or more of these orders present are not necessarily officers' bars. Cheers, Hendrik

Apart from the Victory Medal, the WW1 Commemorative Medal is also missing. I rather think this is the first bar of two that someone was entitled to. The second bar, worn below the first, would thus have the two medals mentioned above plus - quite likely - the Commemorative Medal of the 100th Anniversary of Independence. The palm device on the War Cross is, unfortunately, the one for miniature medals. I quite agree with Valgor that the Yser Medal - though not particularly rare - is important in such a group. It's often underrated in that respect as it does show the recipient was serving from the start of WW1 and managed to survive the 4 year ordeal ... Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Tim, The crown style is an important factor when dating these awards but it's not the only one. Colour of the enamels used, unilingual or bilingual legend, presence of silver and/or maker's marks, overall quality, etc. will all be useful elements to consider. The crossed swords devices (there are 3) on the ribbon indicates an award to a war veteran. I suggest you take a look on www.medals.be where you can find more information ... Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Tim, The ones with the I or II on the reverse are manufactured by the firm of Wolfers. So, definitely not referring to either Leopold I or II. The one in the picture dates probably from before 1914 but one would need to see the crown suspension to properly date the piece. Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Tim, Firstly, you are completely right in that the centre is fixed and should not rotate. As to the centre being offset at times, yours - IMHO - falls well within the limits of acceptability and is a quite nice example of a very good quality one ! If memory serves me right, it appears to have been made by the firm of Wolfers in Brussels. Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Ed, Gorgeous !!!! A truly "noble" group ! Cheers, Hendrik

... and, finally, Visit to Ireland Medal 1900, complete with top bar : Cheers, Hendrik

Detail of the naming on the rim :

... and the 1887 Jubilee Medal with 1897 clasp, also to a Metropolitan Police officer :

Hello Darrell, Very nice addition !!! Here's its Metropolitan Police counterpart : ...

... Oops, I forgot : "VRIJWILLIG" is the normal legend but the "VRYWILLIG" variation is known to exist. Cheers, Hendrik

... mmm, I wonder : as Fackerman pointed out this is an old miniature, not the standard full size award. Don't know much about these things but couldn't it be a period privately manufactured one ? Compared to the full size medal, it does look too different to be called a fake or replica, in my most humble view. The inverted "NE" at the bottom does not stand for the Netherlands. In fact when one turns the medal around while reading the legend, it becomes "TROUW AAN KONING EN VADERLAND" (Loyalty to king and fatherland). Also, this medal exists in two types : one for volunteers, one for other participants. In case of volunteers, the correct ribbon is believed to be orange with green stripes instead of orange with blue stripes. The full size crosses were made from two Belgian cannon captured during the Hasselt battle. This miniature obviously isn't ! P.S. : shouldn't this thread be moved to the Northern Europe section ? Cheers, Hendrik

Visit to Ireland 1903 Medal Cheers, Hendrik

... neatly named on the rim.

Visit to Scotland 1903 Medal :

Hello Darrell, I beg to differ : notice the letter "E" on the reverse suspension ? That points to the firm of Eekelers-Centini near Antwerp, Belgium. Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Doc, The best book I've come across is in French language only ... "Les Distinctions Honorifiques de la Belgique" by the late Andr? Born?. I used it as the basis for my website :-) Cheers, Hendrik

3. Gold crown & 4. small gold crown : to my knowledge there's only one gold crown device (6 mm wide) 5. Gold & silver bars indicate the time spent in the frontline : 1st bar indicates 1 year of frontline duty, each subsequent 6 months are indicated by further bars. 6. Silver crown indicates an award to intelligence agents that have also received a Belgian order for their wartime work Further to these devices, there's also : - black enamelled bar, indicating a posthumous award - the bar for the Belgian expeditionary corps in Russia - black painted bar(s) indicating the period spent as a POW and - crossed anchors for the Belgian Navy members. Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Doc, Is your information coming out of the Byrne book you mentioned earlier in this thread ? If so, that book isn't quite correct. The 10 classes of the Crown Order are : 1. Grand Cross 2. Grand Officer 3. Commander 4. Officer 5. Knight 6. Gold Palms 7. Silver Palms 8. Gold Medal 9. Silver Medal 10. Bronze Medal Cheers, Hendrik

Two classes indeed and there's always been a difference in the colour of the wreath indicating whether awarded for long service in industry or agriculture. A couple of agricultural types with their specific green enameled wreath, one on the normal ribbon, the other on a neck ribbon as worn by women : Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Doc, Actually there are 5 classes : 2 crosses and the above 3 medals ... Here's a couple, 1st class cross on the ribbon for fireman and "civil guard" personnel, 2nd class cross on the usual ribbon for civil servants. Cheers, Hendrik

Hello Bear, 10 April 1809 ... Austrian invasion of Bavaria ? I fully agree with Mike : keep them coming ! Cheers, Hendrik