Thomas Symmonds

... close ups

Those letters are less than a millimeter in width - stunning. The clasp seems to have been bent over and soldered - again, great attention to detail and finishing. Victory's nose though could have been better, perhaps we should not be looking too closley at a Lady's nose anyway.

regards

Thomas

Hello Gentlemen

My first real contribution to your thread and I thought I would start with my latest acquisition. I am partial to the miniature realm of medals, partly because they are cheaper than the full size medals, but mostly because I fine the detail sometimes quite brilliant.

My hope was to post the medal next to an item to show the relative size (I know we all know that minis are about 18mm, but it is sometimes helpfull to others, and I just like doing it that way too.) My first item was a coin (South African) and realised that that wouldn't help because most of you would not know what size they are anyway. So I reached for a paper clip, and four came away - all of different sizes! So I thought a match should work, I assume matches are pretty much the same size world wide - but I couldn't find one! Lighters plenty, but no matches. So....

the mini is 18mm in diameter. It is the U.S.A. version, and the detail is just exquisite. The ribbon is interesting too in that it has a very definite black edging. A burn test resulted in very fine powder and the blending of the colours is beautifully kaleidoscopic.

(close ups to follow - I know they are "close up" now, but wait to see the detail....)

Hello Tim & Rob -

I am afraid that I am probably one of the many who are gaining much from this thread, but contributing little (nothing ). Your one or two references to us "wall-flies" has struck a chord, and I shall endevour to let you know that I am still around now and again.

"I have mused that myself on a few occasions. With all the collectors here on the forums, and the definite international flavour of the victory medal, I find it interesting that there are so few people interested in the vic series. They are either there, and watching but not posting, or they are not there."

"I just wish more people would post their items and get into the discussions and asking questions. We all learn more that way. "

I am a very new beginner in this field, only recently looking at it as a field of collecting that could stand on its own. Looking at this thread it is easy to understand why - soooo many types and variations!! In the past I have really just picked up Vics as I have come across them, always thinking that they are really good looking medals.

This is really a fantastic thread, and a brilliant mine of information for new collectors like me. We can call you our "Grand-Masters".

Thank you again, and please keep posting!!

regards

Thomas

Hello Brett, and all others reading this thread -

Brett, it is actually Will's thread, but I am sure he won't mind you greeting me too

Please post some of those medals, as well as the naming if possible. I would love to see them.

I have recently parted with my set, and regretting it already (the curse of a collector strikes again), but it does free me up to scout for some more interesting sets...

regards

Thomas

Hello all - time to revive this old topic. I have been inactive on GMIC for awhile, although I have been following various threads, but it is good to be back typing again. I have been chasing after a few temperance medals, (and Mr Harris' book), and have found a few - I shall post two tonight - (and I managed to get not one, but two new editions, of "A Guide to Military Temperance Medals" by Mr David Harris - sorry Mervyn I kept the signed copy.) The different types of Temperance medals is amazing, not only in their design - I got so used to the disk-shaped medals, that these intricate and detailed items were quite captivating - but in their distribution according to which Association was represented. The variety, and subtle differences between associations, makes the number of medals and accompaning bars etc quite large. Soldiers and sailors are where my (our) interest lies so the National Temperance League (NTL), Soldiers' Total Abstinence Association (STAA), Army Temperence Association (ATA), Royal Army Temperance Association (RATA) and the Royal Naval Temperance Society (RNTS) - and their associated regimental, sport and shooting medals, as well as various campaign bars - was the obvious place to start - deep breath - I just dived in and this is what I have come up with ... The numbering in brackets is from David Harris' book as mentioned above. My first medal is the Army Temperance Association: India (ATAI.2) 1 year medal. Named the "Gregson Medal". This after the Rev John Gregson (Baptist missionary) who founded the STAA. The STAA medal differs in the wording around the outer rims, obverse and reverse, and the date 1862 as opposed to the ATAI 1887. The second medal is the Royal Army Temperance Association 6 year - India only. At "Home" the RATA.5 was adorned with a "Watch and be Sober" bar which denoted the sixth year. "Lion" hallmark The ATA India medal differs by not having the scrolled Royal above the lion. regards Thomas

Good day All.

I have managed to get a copy of "Uncle Derek's" official Recommendation for Honours and Awards application, sent in by his commanding officer.

What is interesting is the hand written comments below ( Remarks by Officer Commanding Wing) -

Just in case you are struggling to read the hand writting -

" I recommend this award although this particular incident is based entirely on the pilot's own report. He has however carried out very fine work with the squadron."

It is interesting because I would have thought that it would be particularly difficult to get awarded higher honours without eyewitnesses ...

I have copies of other hand written remarks, Of Air Officer Commanding:

" It is shown by other evidence that Lt Bond acted most couragiously on this occasion. His operational record is a fine one and I fully endorse this recommendation"

and of The Commander-In-Chief:

" Immediate award of DFC approved"

I shall post copies later.

Hello all.

I followed JB's acvice and tracked down a copy of "The Aegean Pirates" and believe me if I say that describing this book as brilliant is an understatement! Bouwer and Thompson have truely done a fantastic job. Thompson says in his acknowledgements, "To write a history of a squadron 60 years after the war turned out to be a momentous task." I say, what they have in this book is a monumental achievement.

If anyone wants one contact Marc,

armybooks@mweb.co.za

Marc Norman

Johannesburg

Listed in this book are practically nearly all the aircraft (type, name (honestly), serial number, movement dates, crew, loss date, fate) from the Junkers Ju 86, to Fairey Battles, to Blenheim Mk IVs, to the Bisleys, the Baltimores and the Fairchilds used by the squadron; and from this list we are able to find that Lt DR Bond was flying aircraft FW 723, a Baltimore, on 26 / 04 / 1945 when the incident occured that lead to him being awarded the DFC.

I say "incident" because what is written in the book is different to what JB found in the London Gazette.

I am quoting directly from the book "The Aegen Pirates", page 147 -

"On 28 April, Lt DR Bond's aircraft, Baltimore FW723, was lost due to pre-detonation of bombs after release, causing an explosion beneath the aircraft..."

The heroism and unselfish act of keeping the aircraft flying while sustaining severe burns to his hands, face and legs, in order for his crew to bail out, is not diminished by this discrepency. Unfortunately the book's version does not have the "happy" ending either, and relays that, "his crew, observer Lt GH Richardson, and gunners, Lt SJ Nienaber and W/O II CR Weitz, did not survive." ("The Aegean Pirates", page 147)

I have found a "museum quality" copy of a DFC, and one day when I win the lottery I hope to replace that with the genuine article, and am in the process of putting together "Uncle Derek's" medal entitlement, which I shall post when complete. In the mean time if anyone has any more info or paraphenalia from 15 Squadron South African Air Force, WW II, please let me know. It seems that I have another collector's quest to follow...

Thank you for your post so far.

regards

Thomas

Thank you Mike, Pagan. I appreciate your opinions, and confidence in the quality.

These were purchased along with the EK I and EK II, and although I never really doubted their genuiness it is good to get confirmation.

Yes, a pity about the glue - I suppose it will just have to stay that way.

best regards

Thomas

Thank you Mike, Pagan. I appreciate your opinions, and confidence in the quality.

These were purchased along with the EK I and EK II, and although I never really doubted their genuiness it is good to get confirmation.

Yes, a pity about the glue - I suppose it will just have to stay that way.

best regards

Thomas

Thnak you, Gentlemen, for your answers and comments.

I am really glad that this cross is genuine because as Pagan says, local (for us) prices are "insane" - and I am not going to tell you the price I paid for this one, just that it has now turned out to be a looooooooooooooong loooooooooooooong term investment!

I am glad that I have one though, along with the other crosses and medals, and I intend to clarify who the maker was. I still think it is either W.S or S.W rather than a Z or N. I shall try to get a better photo today.

best regards

Thomas

Hello Gentlemen.

The last of my three "genuine or fake" queries today. The other two relate to Iron Crosses - posted on the relevant sub forums - here I have two merit awards, 2nd class I think. I need opinions on their genuiness ...

and this one ...

Thanks, again, for your help. A value would be appreciated, a PM is fine.

regards

Thomas

Hello All.

This one came in with a number of other German crosses and medals. The EK I - I have posted on the other relevant sub forum, I need help here with this EK II. Genuine or fake, and possible maker. I tried to get a close up of the mark on the ring, but not really any good - and my eyes are no good either ...

Other close ups that might be of help ...

Thanks for your help. Any idea on value you could PM me.

regards

Thomas

Hello all.

I am in unfamiliar waters here and would appreciate any help given. I have come into a number of German medals. One WWI Iron Cross (apparently) and four WWII German crosses and medals. I shall post the WWII items on the appropriate sub forum.

This is the WWI Iron Cross -

I have tried to capture relevant close ups (I tried to pick out what was important from other threads) the "makers mark" ( I think) on the ring is either W.S or S.M.

Other close ups that may be of interest ...

I appreciate your help here. Any ideas of value ? I dont mind a PM.

best regards

Thomas

And there we go Steph. A good deal better than I think you would have got languishing in the previous sub-forum. Jonathan knows his swords. Please let us know how you get along further. All experiences and details would help the next person.

Jonathan, would you have a "name", model etc, for this sword?

regards

Thomas

Hello All.

Peter and Mervyn those figures are just staggering!

"So, the temperance, which often seems a bit comical to modern viewers, had a serious and important purpose and attempted to address a major social problem of the time. Yes, going cold turkey and sticking to it in the face of social pressure, aspersions on one's manhood and constant temptation probably did deserve a medal!" - Absolutely spot on Peter.

Brian, I had no problems with your post at all, in fact maybe I am to blame for not making it clear that no offence was taken initially. Maybe I should use more of these things.

In the off chance that this gets called "off topic" ( ) - does anyone have stats (or best guess) on substance abuse in the military? I say substance abuse, because I suppose "recreational" drugs might play a greater role, and be more prevelant, than alcohol these days. I am not trying to dig up any dirt here, I am merely trying to ascertain if we are now alot smarter to the psycological pressures of soldiering / policing, and are thus better prepared through implemented policies and "R&R" structures, to pehaps avoid the need for temperance medals. I am assuming that they are no longer presented (?)

regards

Thomas

I have two direct family members who have battled drinking problems. One had already passed away before my birth, but her addiction is very much present in my mom's general outlook to life. My father-in-law struggled for nearly 30 years, and one recent Christmas just turned cold-turkey. To me that kind of tremendous mind-over-matter control "deserves a medal".

I can only imagine the terrible conditions that these soldiers were asked to endure. Pulled away from loved ones, travelling over rough seas for long periods, to go spend months / years of putting their life on the line, fighting against people with whom they had no real personal gripe - and then they get asked to give up the one thing that probably makes the whole experience tollerable! "Deserves a medal" takes on a whole new perspective.

Brian your quote of, "It is hard to imagine that the military could be so "lost" to drink to actually need such medals to award temperance.", is perhaps indicative that while we can all easily imagine the bloody battlefields, and the need to reward participation and valour through medals, the unbearable, nervous waiting between contacts is not mentioned. And maybe your second quote of, "I understand that there were many sports clubs started within the military of the times to give soldiers more to do with their off hours than drink." is more valid than we might initially perceive.

Mervyn, on your last post Temperance medals, Leigh posted a picture of the Northumberland Fusiliers in India with a number of the men wearing (displaying) their Temperance medals with justified pride.

I think I am off to see if I can find some more of these "stories-behind-the-lines" medals...

Thank you for your posts so far.

Regards

Thomas

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen.

I am not sure whether this is the correct forum to post this, I had a very quick glance through and thought this the best one - I ask direction if it is inappropriate.

But, never the less I am excited about this new buy. I think I am about to tangent off in a new direction - again! I came across this little beauty, and I mean beauty because I really think this is a handsome medal, and the detail exquisite.

I know nothing more other than what you see in front of you.

"Presented to a Mr Charles Wood by the Committe (sic) of St. James' Branch C.E.T.S. Collyhurst - April 1880".

I would be very interested to know if one of the members actively collects Temperance medals.

best regards

Thomas

Hello Gentlemen.

That is incredible! So THEY are out there faking photos now too. I would not have imagined that.

Is this a fairly common occurance? Who do THEY claim this "new" chap is?

regards

Thomas

Hello Mousey.

Sad story at that attachment, but I could only imagine what it must have been like to sit in one of those bunkers while the shells hit - me, probably with my head between my legs.

Good photographs - telling a story that needs to be remebered and told.

Thanks for sharing.

regards

Thomas

Thank you TacHel, and sorry I have no real idea where to get a palm. This lot just sort of landed in my lap. thanks for the information too. Good luck wit your search.

regards

Thomas

Hello Mervyn.

Lovely medal - and as you mention great provenance. I dont suppose there is a limit to how many people can serve as messengers at one time? The number on the reverse is the number attributed to that specific messenger? So 51 is Major Baker?

And I agree with you about the value aspect. My medals are all alot more valuable than the figures mentioned in THAT book!

regards

Thomas

Here she is ...

Thank you Gentlemen. I appreciate your help. I posted another medal in the France thread that should have been here. I shall post the scan below. Opinions on this one would be greatly appreciated too.

regards

Thomas

Still, these stories, such as with all general myths, have their grounding some where. Does anyone have a clearer picture of where / how this "gold bar" story started?

Thomas

One of the many who went to "get the job done". Thank you. RIP