Jeff Mc William

Ooops sorry Stuart ! To be honest I was a bit confused when I saw it and thought it was a "slip of the pen", but should have known better. Very nice badge tho' my congratulations and best regards. Jeff

Hi Stuart. Thanks for the very nice pic of the William IV pouch badge. However, I see your attachment is labelled "..post 1883.." but William IV reigned from 1830 to 1837, so it is much older than you have indicated ! Leigh : You could be correct, but I don't think so. As Stuart has pointed out, the "WR" should be accompanied with the "IV" as with his badge. Regards. Jeff

Skirt Ornament to a Scottish Regiment ?? Can't think what "WR" could stand for tho' !????? Best I can offer. Jeff

Thanks Mervyn. Yes, I know my pics are a bit "duff" but 70K is not much to work with..especially when I see some of the other splendid pics on this site ! Sorry, no I don't collect any more..poor pensioner, can't afford to ! But I still enjoy my research work and am always willing to pass on my knowledge (such as it is). Best wishes. Jeff

Hi Mervyn. These "reversed & entwined" scroll cyphers can be very confusing I know, but I have to disagree with you here I'm afraid : If you download Alex's image and spin it round 180 degrees, you will find the VR cypher is correctly aligned. I hope this next picture shows it a bit clearer than the last, but I am limited to 70K pics on this site. Regards. Jeff

Excellent photos and well researched (tho' I suspect the ribbon is "modern") Many thanks for the priviledge of showing us this outstanding award. Jeff

Hi (again) Alex. I have now been able to date your plume holder more accurately, ie ; 1869 to 1878. Prior to this, the gilt ball at the base was plain. The VR cypher was added in 1869, and the shako was replaced by the helmet in 1878. Regards. Jeff PS: By the way, this was a "universal" pattern for all shakos, so it cannot be attributed to any particular regiment.

Hi Alex. Me again. First of all, your item is upside down ! It is a Victorian Officer's Ball plume (or tuft) holder. It was used on a number of British Army Shakos from 1837 to 1878. I cannot date yours precisely, but would guess it is a later pattern. Regards Jeff

Hi Alex. No, I'm afraid it doesn't (apart from the list of Colonels) although the Appendices are 123 pages long ! I think your best option if you want to trace a relative is to write to the regimental HQ. Best of luck. Jeff

Hi again Alex. Yes, sorry, I should have pointed out that the Leask & McCance book was published in 1915 so thats why the information re the RUSI Museum is a "touch" out of date ! But the identification is still valid, and indeed L & McC is regarded by many as the regimental "Bible" as far as details of Dress and badges are concerned. And it looks like a Bible too ; 782 pages, 265X200X60mm, and weighing 3lbs ! Regards Jeff PS: With regard to value, I am not too sure..I guess £80 to £100 is possible, perhaps even more. Maybe Bosleys could advise ?

and here is the text (p681) :

Hi again rusticalex. Having another "go" at attaching these images to this thread. First, here is the line drawing from p.680 of "The Regimental Records of the Royal Scots" by J.C.Leask & H.M.McCance :

Hi rusticalex. Your excellent badge is an officer's forage cap badge c.1845 to 54 worn only by the 2nd Battn the Royal Scots. I will try to append the appropriate pages from the regimental history by Leask & McCance but I am not very good with pics on this site. Anyway, it is a very rare and desireable item, so hang onto it or get a good price for it. Try Bosleys if you want to get rid. Regards Jeff

Hi Paul. Thanks once again for your expert help...much appreciated I assure you. I have rquested some close-up pics (obv & rev) of the others from the owner, but for some reason they have suddenly gone strangely quiet !? Anyway, thank you again for your kindness. Jeff

Hi Paul. Many thanks indeed for your expert assesment of these curious medals. I am sorry to say they are not mine, but I will try to get the close-up pics you require of the reverse of these from the owner if I can. Meanwhile, here are two of them, viz 2 ie top middle silver medal, and 6 ie bottom right fancy star. I wonder if I might ask what you think of these. Many thanks in advance and best regards. Jeff PS: Sorry about the definition, but it would appear the max file size is only 70K

Hi all. Please excuse my ignorance, I think all these are Chinese awards...but they could be Japanese I suppose. Could somebody please identify ?! Thanks. Jeff

Thank you Cussonneau. What an amazing and interesting site ! After looking at this I guess the so called "Order of the Button" refers in fact to one or all of these delightful Chinese Orders of Merit. Thank you again for your kind and generous (and most helpful) reply. Sincerely. Jeff

James. Thank you for your most courteous and informative reply. If you will excuse me now for a short while I will consult further the details which I referred to in my original post, plus anything else I can find which might clarify the situation. It is a great pity I feel that neither Elvin or Tancred were able to provide illustrations of this particular device in their otherwise excellent early works. I notice you referred to the similarity with the Order of the Double dragon..which indeed I also did in my first post, and it seems Elvin was aware of this also from the vestige of the page in Rick's attachment. Have you any comments re the alternative title for the "Button" award, viz ; "Precious Star (Pao Hsing)" also mentioned in my first post ? Hopefully I will get back to you shortly with the remaining details which I have..tho' not unfortunately any pictures. Regards Jeff

James. Oh dear..now I really am confused ! To which "writer" are you referring, Rick or Elvin (or me !) ? Also, you seem to infer that these "buttons" served only as badges of rank for Imperial Officials. But, if this is so, what were these "Order of the Button" awards given to the four men of the 67th Regt in 1862 mentioned by Elvin (and incidently Tancred) ? Also I am aware of similar awards to the Royal Artillery and the Anglo Chinese Contingent. So, while I bow to your obvious superior knowledge in these matters, to say that I am now more confused than ever is an understatement ! Cheers Jeff

Rick. Thanks very much for this..it looks as tho' we are off to a good start ! I wonder if anyone "out there" has any pics they can show me ? I do know there were at least four grades, viz : The Red Button, Green Button, Blue Button, and Crystal Button. This last may also have been known as the White Button ?? Regards Jeff PS What does Werlich actually say ?

Can someone help a confused novice in the matter of Chinese OD&M's : I am anxiously seeking information regarding the "Order of the Precious Star" (Pao Hsing) also I believe called the "Order of the Button" instigated (I think) in 1862 and awarded to several British Officers and men of the Anglo Chinese Contingent, presumably for their services in the Taiping Wars. The Order is very briefly referred to in Tancred (published in 1891). One item is listed in the RUSI Catalogue published in 1916, and there is also another mention in the OMRS Journal (Autumn 1982). So I quite expected to find a more detailed description in the latest book "Chinese Orders 1862-1955" by Gongqing Li as outlined in the Chinese Blog http://chinesemedal.wordpress.com also given in a previous thread on this forum..but..nothing, tho' it does seem to have a remarkable similarity with the "Order of the Double Dragon" ?? Could anybody clarify please ?? Jeff

Yes, it is indeed a fine group, not mine tho' I dont collect any more..just research. This group was sold by DNW in Nov 1996. I bet it fetched a "bomb" !! Regards. Jeff

Hi everyone. Many thanks again for the useful information and your kind comments. I am no longer a "doubting Thomas" on this issue ! But hey..has anyone out there got a decent photo of the 1877-9 bar they can send me for my records? I would be most grateful. My e-mail address is : jeff.mcwilliam@tiscali.co.uk Thanks to anyone who can help. Sincerely. Jeff

Thanks Jeff. Yes I have tried this link but was unable to get the full list..just extracts..what am I doing wrong ? Oh, and just to whet your appetite Lilo, how about this amazing group of Brig.Gen George Pereira, Grenadier Gds. He was a Major when he received his Order of the Dragon No.668, and,as you can see, had two Japanese decorations as well !

Hi Lilo. Yes,by all means. This is Lot 338 in the Spink Sale 23rd July 2009. Details as follows : MAJOR T.J.W.Prendergast ROYAL ENGINEERS No.669 ?1,000 to ?1,200 if you care to bid for it ! Best of luck in your research, I too am desperately searching for the "Roll". Regards. Jeff