peter monahan

Hello Stuart,

You must be "over the moon" about now with the addition of thses great specimens to your collection.

Regards

Brian

Wow! what a lovely collection, indeed. Every time I see one of your posts I remember why I once thought nothing of spending the rent money on a 'tatty old hat'.

Kidding, actually but on occasion I do have to remind myself that envy is one of the Seven Deadlies. I hope they give you as much pleasure owning them as they do some of the rest of us viewing them. I'm with Brian: thanks for sharing.

Peter

"I came across this incredible story of devotion and bravery in an old catalogue of Spink's. The original action took place in 1916 and the children - brother and sister, were 11 and 8 respectively. Both were very severly injured and the Govt. Gazette made clear just how, at that young age, they had defended each other."

Somewhat after I posted my rather flippant response to Mervyn's story, it occurred to me that the tone may have seemed rather callous. I didn't mean to imply that the story of the two Canadian siblings was one of anything less than incredible bravery. Nor did I mean to suggest that wild animal attacks are a source of amusement. In fact, in the last week there have been two stories out of British Columbia, one involving a bear attack on a man, who survived, and the other an account of black bears - not normally considered maneaters - feeding on the body of a woman who may or may not have been killed by one of them. Four bears were shot by the authorities in the second case.

I hope that my over-hasty response and attempts to be clever has not offended anyone.

This website - http://www.reubique.com/IndPnrs.htm - gives a list of medals to various Indian Pioneer units, including 6 men of the 107th. Of particular interest is Private Francis D. Souza - almost certainly an Indian Christian from Goa and, as such, not commonly enlisted in regular Indian Army units.

Peter

Gordon

L.L. Gordon's British Battles and Medals,once the standard reference for British medals and bars does list the 1/107th as serving in the Third Afghan War. Gordon often omitted at least some Indian units from the lists in early editions of the book, so if he does include them its a safe bet they were there. Mind you, he lists multiple battalions of all 11 Gurkha regiments and over 60 infantry units, including States Forces AND the RAF. 12,500 bars in all, so it was a big bash!

Naval and Military Press is offering the official history for L18. Here's the blurb:

Official history of the 1919 Third Afghan War

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Third Afghan War was fought in the wake of the Great War, when Amanullah, Afghanistan's Amir (ruler), aided by Pashtun (Pathan) tribal allies, and emboldened by an alliance with the new Bolshevik regime in Russia, took advantage of Britain's post-Great War weariness and nationalist unrest in India itself, to launch two surprise strikes into the North-West frontier region of British India in May 1919. The short-lived war that followed saw Britain check the thrusts and launch a counter strike in Baluchistan which took the town of Dakka. Britain also launched air-raids on the Afghan capital, Kabul, and the city of Jalalabad. The war ended in stalemate, and Britain granted autonomy in foreign affairs to the Afghanis in the Treaty of Rawalpindi. In the fighting, British and Indian Army troops lost nearly 2,000 men, many of them to cholera, while Afghani losses were estimated at 3,000. This official history gives a detailed account of the military action, the lead-up to, causes and course of the war and its lessons. It is illustrated by particularly fine and detailed colour maps and has an appendix of British Army units invloved in the war.

Peter

Hi Stuart

No great mystery here, a broad sword is simply two edged and a back sword has a single cutting edge. There is a degree of romance attached to the term broad sword, people connecting this with an extremely large claymore etc.

CheersCathey

I did some research a couple years ago on the heart-shapes, in an attempt to answer that very question and, as far as I was able to ascertain, there is no particular reason other than 'tradition': somebody did it that way and enough others copied the idea that it eventually became 'how we do it'.

My tuppence worth!

Peter

2)

"I came across this incredible story of devotion and bravery in an old catalogue of Spink's. The original action took place in 1916 and the children - brother and sister, were 11 and 8 respectively. Both were very severly injured and the Govt. Gazette made clear just how, at that young age, they had defended each other."

We self effacing and incredibly modest Canadians don't like to talk about these things. Not done, donncherknow!

Seriously though: cougar attacks are becoming not uncommon as the big cat population rebounds from decades of hunting. It has now been decided that these beautiful animals are to be protected but, unfortunately, there are more and more people impinging on their territory. Several joggers have been attacked in British Columbia, at least one fatally. I'm not sure whether the running has anything to do with sparking the attacks, but cougars can and do pull down adult whitetail deer - 200 to 400 pounds on the hoof.

While meaning no disrespect to the heroic siblings, and it was very definitely heroic, in this day and age I root for the cats! And grizzly bears, who also eat the occasional hiker. They were here first and there are far fewer of them than there are joggers! And the joggers can, if they wish, read signs, pamphlets and web sites on why jogging can in fact be bad for your health if practiced under certain circumstances and what to do to minimize one's chances of becoming a hot lunch.

Peter

This postcardfor sale around the time Swaab was in knee pantsshows a scene that was a staple in camp memoirs before WW1. The greasy Jew comes to a spic `n span army camp anywhere in the world, in all his stereotypically unkempt appearance, and is chased away by the boisterous clean-limbed subalterns or enlisted men. In this card it is a U.S. Army camp and the merchant has been hit in the head by a boot and dropped his wares in his haste to get away. The memoirs usually recount, unapologetically, how the merchant shows up at camp or a departing troopship to try and collect some outstanding debt, and the deadbeat officer pulls all sorts of tricks and wiles in a reversal of the usual stereotype, including marching up the gangplank disguised as a private or hiding in a barrel and being hoisted aboard ship before the searching eyes of the merchant and the adjutant. The deadbeat officer sails off to die for his country and the Jew goes back to making money for his, seems to be the implication.

One of Rudyard Kipling's lesser Tales of the Raj tells of communal rioting in a northern Indian city. One of the vigniettes within the larger story has a British subaltern, called out of his club to help control the rioters, hoping he'll meet his moneylender so he can break his head. The officer looks on approvingly as the mob burns the moneylender's house since, without the signed IOU, he has no intention of repaying his debt. Kipling doesn't comment on merits of this position but the sheer casual acceptance of both the racial prejudice and the officer's larceny are eye opening to a modern reader. But then, I live in one of the countries which turned away boat loads of Jewish refugees in the late 1930s and so helped in some small way, perpetuate the Holocaust. It's good to see that, not only were some few Jews recognized and rewarded, presumable in part for going against 'their true nature' but that those few may have had a hand in changing the very stereotypes they lived under.

Peter

BigJar

The IGS 1936-39, instituted in 1938, replaced the IGS 1908. Two versions were struck, the plainer of the two at the Calcutta Mint - plain shoulders to the suspender, poorer relief work on the tiger. It is also somewhat thicker than the Royal Mint version. The award dates were 24th Nov 1936 to 16th/17th Jan 1937 and/or 16th/17th Jan 1937 to 15th/16th Dec 1937

The 1936-37 campaign was a massive attempt to kill or capture the Faqir of Ipi, a Sufi religious leader who was mobilizing the tribes of Waziristan against British rule. A massive force invaded Waziristan and spent 13-14 months raiding and destroying villages and pursuing the faqir and his men unsuccessfully. There were 10 British units involved, some in large numbers; 20 plus Indian units including elements of 6 Gurkha regiments and some Mountain Batteries and sorties by 9 RAF squadrons.

My source for all this is Major L.L. Gordon's British Battles and Medals, 4th editon [1971]. He mentions the 4/8th Punjab Reg't but not the 2nd. However, he also says of the 4th/8th and some other units "The following units and others that one cannot trace, also received the award." [op cit, 338]

Michael Johnson, a member of this forum, compiled a list of units Gordon omitted from various Indian campaigns and it was published in or added to a later edition of Gordon. [Gordon was notoriously incomplete in his listing of Indian units, possibily as a result of poor sources.] Michael may be able to tell you more.

Hope this helps a little. The nasty little campaign, notorious at the time, has faded into the mists of history. The British Army used such cross-border campaigns as, among other things, advanced battle training for units stationed in India but they represent the bulk of the soldiering done by many Indian soldiers and units throughout the period of the Raj. I've just located a fairly good synopsis at this site: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/nwfp-1937.htm

Cheers

Peter

Watching out not to use "fresh" wood. Its not only the possibility of leaking sap and oils but also the smell which these contain that may leave an odour on the display items. Also, and this is a given, make sure that fresh wood is properly treated as the last thing you would want to do is transport an army of unwanted visitors into your war rooms!!!

Historically, museums and other institutions are/were very found of oak cases. Unfortunately, as Brian pointed out, oak has a very high acid content and tests suggest that a closed oak cabinet needs a full year of sitting empty to make sure any harmful vapours have dissipated before artifacts are introduced. Equally problematic are any 'made up' woods - plywood or veneered woods - as the various adhesives give off solvent fumes for some time.

[As an aside, this results in poor air quality of many new homes, at least in Canada: much of the millwork and even walls are glued rather than nailed or screwed together.]

I'm not sure what the effect of sealing the various woods would be, in terms of preventing bleed-through of moisture, sap or gases, but once the sealant itself has stabilized I suspect it should be ok.

They look to be of excellent quality foer the size and price. Nice find. Please do share any more you get too, Mervyn, :rolleyes:

I have never seen one like it Mervyn. Ian

It's certainly an odd one! Mervyn, what makes you think "British Constabulary"? I would have thought that the blade pattern would be not uncommon - a 'hangar' or 'cutlass' - though the false edge [if that's the term] on the tip might be less usual.

Peter

Hi,

I just got 3 Pakistan Independece medals in the post today and i am not sure of the ranks.Can anybody help me thankyou.The naming on the medals are

1.MUHAMMAD ASHRAF H.C 1885

2.FEROZE KHAN F.C.573

3.1222669 PA NK MOHD ALI KHAN R.P.A.(NK is that nark but i am not sure what P A is)

`NK`is short for `Naik`, which is `Corporal`. Not sure about the PA but I`ll think on it. :rolleyes:

Anyway, the only correct item on His Highness' uniform seems to be the Royal Victorian Chain. Congratulations wardrobe master!

Hey, cut the guy / girl some slack. It takes a lot of work to get it that wrong! Given that almost everything is from the right country and within 50 years of the right date, somebody in wardrobe/props must have actually rifled through a medal book for a whole 3 or 4 minutes!

Peter

Either the wardrobe master or I am nuts. I recognize some of the medals (I think), but the ribbons seem crazy, especially for pre-WWI.

Please - help!

Hugh

Hugh

It's not you!

In my very limited experience with the film industry, they pay thousands of dollars/euros/zloty fflew or history consultants then ignore what they say if it conflicts with "the look" the director or artistic designer is looking for!

A recent film production flew dozens of uniforms from LA to Hawaii for a film set 'before the present', THEN asked the consultant which ones to use. Turns out they had enough 1800-ish British naval uniforms to outfit the whole crew of a sizeable ship as Midshipmen - no sailors, no other officers.

When the last version of Vanity Fair was shot, the scene at the ball in Brusseles the night before Waterloo was "stunning". Every British officer in the room was dressed in a shade of purple, pink, orange or blue. It looked like somebody had given a bad colour photo of senior British officers to a bad civilian tailor, along with a truckload of sequins and lace, and said "Make them sorta like this, but different." I asked around and, no word of a lie, it turns out that the [Hungarian] art director "doesn't like red".

As I am prone to point out to my more sensitive comrades when we have to deal with such visual atrocities: "One, they're selling popcorn, not history and , two, grit your teeth, walk away and cash their cheque." Life's to short to waste on morons!

My tuppence and more.

I am constantly amazed how heavily the German Army was dependent on horses.

Hollywood never shows it this way...

I think the figure I read once was that 30% of Wermacht transport was still horse drawn by 1945. It was in connection with photos taken after D-Day, as the Allies rush to close the Falaise Gap: the results of Typhoons strafing convoys of horse drawn carts. When horse carcasses bloat the legs on the upper side are actually pushed out horizontal to the ground and there is one particularly heartbreaking shot of an Allied tank rolling past a whole roadside covered in these poor dumb animals who died as a result of an inter-human conflict.

Peter

Two quick comments.

1) I wasn't there, so I can't possibly know the circumstances suffciently well to 'grade' the award. I've always felt that 'good VC' was clearly an oxymoron, yet some persist in trying to distinguish some awards as 'better' than others!

2) And if Beharry's VC was awarded partly for political motives, that won't make it unique! Look at the 182 VCs issued during the Indian Mutiny, of which 35 were earned in September alone for the attacks on Delhi. And the eleven awarded to various defenders of Rourke's Drift.

Arguably the Mutiny VCs were awarded before it had achieved the cachet of THE award for gallantry in the field, but almost certainly the fact that the British public needed some good news out of India was a factor as well. And, without detracting for a minute from the heroic exploits of private Hook and his comrades in South Africa, it again appears to me that recognizing those brave heroes helped, in part, balance the morale-busting news from Isandalwana.

My tuppence worth.

Peter

Yes, there were other year (1861,1862,1863, etc.) that were used but the 1865 year blade apparently were made too late to be used in the war.

Bob

Monahan shoots from the mouth again!

If I'd read more carefully I'd have noticed the 1865 dating, referring to the blade and not the 1860 [model year]. My comments were predictaed on my mistaken notion that the whole thing was dated 1860. D'oh! [hanging my head in shame]

Peter

I wonder if the single ribbon on the Sergeant in Photo 1 might be an Afghan War medal. That would seem possible, to me, for a set of 1885-1900 ish photos. I'm basing that dating, BTW, on general "look" and gut feeling, not anything so scientific as a book on uniforms. [Not at home now]

This is my Model 1860 Cavalry Sword with the maker mark of C. Roby W. Chelmsford, Mass. and US/1865/A.G.M. It has a 35 in. long blade.

It is my understanding that this year of swords were made too late to see action in the American Civil War or also known as the War Between the States.

Bob

I'm no expert on US swords and I know that 'new models' never get issued as fast as headquarters, but if it was approved in 1860 there must have been some made bewyeen then and the end of the Civil War in 1865, even if there weren't enough to arm all the cavalry.

Also, swords were carried by US cavalry for some years after 1865. An account I read yers ago about US cavalry 'pacifying' the US West mention that troops on patrol against possible hostile Indians didn't carryswords but the clear implication was that swords had been issued. And they would certainly been carried by mounted troops in full dress/parade order till at least 1900 or later.

Les,

If you have more to add, it's fine with me. Archaeology has always interested me especially of a battlefield as they follow the fight and can piece together how it was fought and the movements of soldiers, Armies, etc.

Bob

I read a National Geographic article years ago on the work that was done at the site after one grass fire. Based on cartridges recovered, it seemed to indicate that the Sioux/LaKota had far more firearms and sometimes better ones - multi-shot rifles - than was formerly supposed. I thought that quite interesting, as is any battlefield archaeology!

Just out of interest is there a link to the video?

MG

Here is the link to the Pak Army web page: "Images" http://pakistanarmy.gov.pk/AWPReview/ImageGalleries.aspx?rnd=498

If you scroll right to the bottom there is a link to "Glourious Resolve", the documentary I mentioned. I couldn't get it to load - it hung up my internet explorer, but I think it's my server, not the sitye per se.

I see in the Toronto paper today that a Pak. Taliban suicide bomber killed 30 officer cadets and an instructor, at morning 'exercises' [PT, at a guess.] The bomber seems to have been a child in school uniform, though the Taliban phoned ABC news and claimed it was a 'soldier'. Murderous bastards! And by that I mean suing children and the mentally impaired. It could be argued that soldiers are a legitimate target, however killed - I'm not taking that position myself BTW - but using kids is beyond the pale! Perhaps when the struggle ends, and it eventually will, almost certainly with a Taliban loss IMHO, the pakistanis will be able to award something to the brave 'jawans' who fought the fight.

Well, the Pakistan Army's web site, under "Accomplishments 2010" talks about sports medals awarded and a military competition in the UK in which a PA team placed first. There is also a reference to a video which apparently features 2 soldiers valiantly fighting off "1000 terrorists" in an attempt to 'eradicate terror from the land of the pure', but no mention there or in any news accounts I could find of awards for actions against the talebs and their allies. So, who knows?

Peter, you make an interesting point that I hadn`t considered. I had assumed that Pakistan would issue medals to its soldiers & police in the same vein as Britain does (did) for such campaigns as Northern Ireland?

You'd think so, yes, but these things are even touchier in Pakistan, where substantial sections of the military sympathize with and even covertly assist the Taliban and other Islamicist extremists. Not a subject likely to be much discussed, at least in public, in that country.

Also, I think I recall that there was some considerable talk, originally, over the awarding a "northern Ireland" bar for the GSM, on the grounds that it was a 'police action', 'internal conflict' or 'a [pic PC phrase of your choice]' and not a pukka 'war'.

Believe there has recently been a New Zealand VC to an SAS guy, your right.

But I think that it was a NZ VC as apposed to a UK VC, there is a difference. I think

Wasn`t the last UK VC to Cpl Budd of the Parachute Regt?

And before the current crop of VCs, for Iraq and Afghanistan,the last living [british] VC winner was [Honorary] Captain Rambahadar Limbu, VC. He won the Cross in 1965 in Malaysia, as a Lance-Corporal with the 10th Princess Mary's Own Gurkha Rifles. His original was stolen from a train in India but a replacement was issued and he was also made a member of the RVO for his role as Queen's Gurkha Orderly officer.

In the period with which I'm most familiar - say 1790 to 1820 - there is little or no evidence that drummers were boys at all, despite popular myth. I think one also needs to distinguish between 'regular recruiting' of boy soldiers and the kind of 'nudge nudge, wink, wink' war-time events referred to by George Parker, boy soldier.

I've been working through pay records of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment from 1808 to 1816. There are about two dozen Drummers [a rank, some of whom were fifers] in 1812, but many appear to be returned to 'line' duties as the war goes on. Keep in mind that, in the early 19th Century, drums were one of the only means of long distance/ broadcast communication on the battalefield and a boy who couldn't master the dozens of calls would be of little use. Not sure what standard of musicianship would be needed, but surely not all 'boys' had it.

Secondly, in 'my' period, drummers were also tasked with helping move wounded off the field, not a job for striplings. Finally, there would be considerable resistance, I suspect, from the bandmaster to having a revolving door on his band: spending months and years training musicians only to have them 'age out', leave the band for a line company and leave him with a new group to train.

I suspect that the 'minature soldier' resplendent in muscian's regalia was much more common in Victorian postcards, stories and popular imagination than in the barracks and cantonments of Her Majesty's or His Majesty's imperial armies. In fact, Rudtard Kiplings "Drums of the Fore and Aft" wonderfully encapsulates both the mawkish sentiment and the rather different reality of drummers on campaign. I recommend it highly!

My tuppence worth and more!

Peter