peter monahan

Robin - I think these are variations of the badge... I don't think the length of the bones has any direct ref. to the rank. Mervyn

I agree. Variants from two different time periods, rather than rank differencing. The later would be very cumbersome to implement - not that that rules it out in the tradition-mad cavalry - and, I think, unusual practice for a British regiment.

In 1995 the Government of Canada belatedly allowed all Canadian merchant mariners the right to wear the Canadian Voluntary Service Medal

By which time many of them were dead! Made the whole issue of pensions moot [and therefore cheap] from the government's perspective. A great shame, as many of the men on the Murmansk run, for example, had as hard a war as any of the PBI and many air and naval crews.

My father-in-law was a radio operator on a tramp steamer, in Aden when the war began, and torpedoed in the Bay of Biscay, one day short of England. he took that as a sign and came home to Canada, where he joined the Air Transport Corps, later `Ferry Command`, and flew back and forth across the Atlantic and as far as India.

Though he was in fact an employee, not a serviceman, he qualified for the 1939-45 Star, CVSM and War Medal. What I`m not sure is whether that eligibility dated from the war years or later, as he only applied for them many years later ^- at my urging, in fact.

I'm no expert, but to me that looks like a Gordon Highlander tartan.

That's how I'd call it too. Any Jocks out there, with a better guess?

Peter

I posted this elsewhere on the forum, but it was a little buried. Am re-posting here (with some more details of research to date) because I would be interested to see Waterloo Medals held by other members.

Medal is correctly named to (Private) George Cooling of the Royal Waggon Train. I have researched Cooling at Kew and found detail as follows:...

Reason for Discharge: "Found to be worn out and unfit for service at the half yearly Inspection by ... on 12 May 1832.

Personal Note: Research to date presents a quite sad (but I'm sure quite typical) case of an old Waterloo veteran soldier (who remained a Private for his 24 years of service) being medically discharged for being 'too knackered' to go on'.

But not so knackered that he produced 3 of his 6 children after discharge, the last at the fairly advanced age of 54 years

Peter

Hello Nightbreak,

Please do not bother to ask-I have already done myself so and their answer was that they would give NO info. Moreover, they told me to tell the owner of this medal bar to RETURN the Order of Canada to their service, because it is the property of H.M. the Queen.

By the way, does anybody have a clue if it is legal to buy or sell an Order of Canada in Canada or the UK and how much would that cost?

I think you've answered your own question: if an award is the property of H.M. the Queen, then it cannot be legal to sell or buy it! As to what the relevant office should have done, I suspect that the paperwork which accompanied the award stipulated that it was to be returned on the death of the recipient, but how many relatives would know or care years after the award? As to the Chancery Office bidding for it at auction, well, would you bid on your car if someone had stolen it and put it on auction? Or call a cop?

Not being judgemental, BTW. I have in the past owned medal groups with items in them which probably technically beloged to H.M. and I can't say it ever cost me any sleepless nights. I would, however, be very leery of asking officialdom what status it had!

My tuppence worth.

Peter

Toolkit

You have quite a collection there! Unfortunately, the very best book on Indian badges, which has just been published - last year - is available only from India and costs a LOT of money. The author is Ashok Nath, who now lives in Sweden, I think, but served in the Indian Armoured Corps during the 1970's or so.

At the moment my computer is not letting me copy the pictures to blow ujp and study but I can ID some even from the small pictures. [i once co-founded a group called 'The Indian Military Collectors Society', so I used to know a bit and can still remember some of it.

I'll try to do some of the easy ones for now.

In post #3 – your first one – I will identify things by row and number in the row, so the 4th badge in row 1 will be '1.4' and so on.

1.4- 1st Lancers [Hodson's Horse]; 1.5 - 19th Punjab Infantry; 1.6 - 8th King George's Own Lancers;

upside down badge below row 1 - 3rd Hyderabad Infantry

2.6, 2.7 & 2.8 – Hyderabad [state forces] units

3.1– Bombay Grenadiers; 3.3- 5th Gurkha Rifles [post-1947]; 3.6 - 2nd Lancers [Gardner's Horse]; 3.7 - 45th Cavalry, Indian Armoured Corps [post-1947]

4.1 - 9th Jat Regiment; 4.2 & 4.3 Pakistan Medical Corps [post-1947]; 4.4 – Assam Regiment; 4.5 - 12th Frontier Force [sam Browne's] Cavalry; 4.7 - 5th Hyderabad Infantry; 4.9 – Frontier Constabulary [Pakistani, post-1947]

I'll try to do a few more in a couple days when I have more time. Feel free to e-mail me off-list [petemonahan@sympatico.ca] with questions .

Anything with the Lions of Ashoka on it – 3.5, for example; is post '47 Indian; anything wit laterh the star and crescent, or either of those alone, is post '47 Pakistani, with a few exceptions

Fantstiche! Family groups have always appealed to me but mostly one sees brothers or father & son, not man and wife. Another nice catch, Mervyn.

Peter

Hard to know what to think about this one. I suppose it depends on whether one espouses the 'hearts and minds' approach, in which case its clearly "Bad Gurkha! Drop it, sir!", or embraces the notion that dead is dead and who cares about his head as long as it served its purpose and wasn't simply a historically sound but tacky way to count coup.

Gurkha ordered back to UK after beheading dead Taliban fighter

By Christopher Leake

A Gurkha soldier has been flown back to the UK after hacking the head off a dead Taliban commander with his ceremonial knife to prove the dead mans identity.

The private, from 1st Battalion, Royal Gurkha Rifles, was involved in a fierce firefight with insurgents in the Babaji area of central Helmand Province when the incident took place earlier this month.

His unit had been told that they were seeking a high value target, a Taliban commander, and that they must prove they had killed the right man.

The Gurkhas had intended to remove the Taliban leaders body from the battlefield for identification purposes.

But they came under heavy fire as their tried to do so. Military sources said that in the heat of battle, the Gurkha took out his curved kukri knife and beheaded the dead insurgent.

He is understood to have removed the mans head from the area, leaving the rest of his body on the battlefield.

This is considered a gross insult to the Muslims of Afghanistan, who bury the entire body of their dead even if parts have to be retrieved.

British soldiers often return missing body parts once a battle has ended so the dead can be buried in one piece.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1295617/Gurkha-ordered-UK-beheading-dead-Taliban-fighter.html#ixzz0wb7ICRAu

Would I be correct in assuming that men like Bearer Hardial Murli of the A.B.C served in the Easy African campaign or were they sent to Europe as well?

I've always meant to do more reading on the WWI African campaigns, after reading a single book decades ago. The bits that stick in my mind were the notion of units moving up trails into hoastile territory - a formation one man wide and several miles long - a nightmare from the tactical and logistics points of view. Also, a bit of doggerel sung on the march by the bearers: "We are the bearers who carry the food for the bearers who carry the food." Maybe it even rhymes in Swahili or Urdu!

The Indian Army issued a number of bronze medals including, I think, one for the Tibet expedition, to everyone from 'Syce' [groom] to "Khitmatgar" [butler/ mess servant]. Again, much information yet to be identified on these men and their role in maintaining the Raj! The medals used to be scorned by most collectors, as 'non-combatant awards' but personally I don't see a great deal of difference between the soldier who fights off an attack by hostile tribesmen and the stretcher bearer who goes out to recover his body under fire from the same foes. Or between the trooper, private or gunner threatened by random 'harassing fire' along a communications road and the Chinese labourer who puts up the poles for field telephone wires on the same stretch of road.

My tuppence worth and more!

Peter

Looking at the badges they look more like Victorian than Waterloo period.......

Mike

The crossed daggers are very interesting, as the Victorian soldier would not have carried anything like that as part of his weaponry - still using long bayoneys until after WWI. They look like special forces fighting knives, which is just plain odd! Very intriguing. Please do let us know if the badge forum can ID them for you.

Peter

Half pay was a form of what we would consider 'reserve service' and a way of keeping former officers around between wars. Most of the Royal Navy officers went on half pay after the Napoleonic wars and never served at sea again, as the fleet was cut back immenseley in 1815 and after. Half pay was not strictly a pension, however, and ended with the death of the recipient.

Records of half pay officers would have been kept by the War Office. I have no idea where they are now but Stuart or one of our UK members may know.

I am researching an ancestor who was a Captain in the 19th Hussars from 1862 - 1872. Prior to that he was in the 1st Bengal European Cavalry. ... his death certificate says he was a capt in the 19th Hussars, but I can't work out whether he was still in the Army at that stage or if he had been discharged. Is it likely that members of the unit would have been stationed in Brisbane - acting as the police force perhaps? Also, I am wondering how often and how long he may have had leave in England. His family were not stationed with him in Bengal, and I am just wondering how he managed to be the father of 3 children if he was OS!!

Does anyone have any suggestions where I could go to get more info.

The 1-5th Bengal European Cavalry regiments wre a stop gap measure - created in 1857 after the Indian Mutiny, in which 7 of the ten or so Indian Bengal cavalry units mutinied. Only three of the Bengal Eur. units actually existed [other than on paper] and all were taken into the British Army in 1861, probably broken up and parcelled out to existing cavalry units.

It was quite common for British officers after leaving the army to be referred to by the highest rank they attained, so Captain Hornswoggle of the Princess Hohenzolleren Fore and Fit Regiment of Foot, would go by "Captain', even official documents like marriage licences and death certificates reading "Captain Hornswoggle, late of Her Majesty's .... Regiment".

As to the children conceived while Daddy was in foreign parts, I won't decend to the humour SOME people on this list resort to but point out that Indian Army officers got a full year of leave as often as every eight or ten years and some wives did travel out with thier spouse to far corners of the Empire. If he was 1st European Cav. he was likely employed by John Company or some other commercial enterprise prior to joing up and, if an officer in that unit may have been of sufficient social stature to have his family with him, as many of the 'commercials' stayed out in India for decades.

Very unlikely that the 19th were stationed in Australia that late, if ever, but as he seems to have had a wandering foot anyway - he was in India first - the retired captain may have taken his army back pay and decided to try for a new life Down Under.

Tuppence worth!

Peter

Just a heads up that you can get details of the men of the 21st Battalion Canadian Expeditionary Force at Al Lloyd's fascinating website at http://21stbatallion.ca/ He has collected hundreds of photos of the men, their gravemarkers (GWGC and others) and a long list of biographies. There are also lots of photos and history of the battalion itself.

Also, Library and Archives Canada have published on line a number of the Service records in pdf format. It seems that if they get a request for a copy of the service record, they take that opportunity to scan the file to pdf.

Sarge

Sarge

Welcome to the GMIC!

He's right, gwentleman, the 21sters have done tremendous work - absolutely amazing how much info. a diligent bunch of people can pull together from that far back, mostly by countless hours poring over old paper. The site is well worth a visit for anyone with interests in WWI.

Peter

Acting Conductor of Supplies, senior NCO in the ASC and STC

Paul

The rank goes back several centuries but by WWI was a senior warrant officer - equivalent to a Staff Sergeant Major - in the Ordnance, Service and Transport corps. Apparently they exist today as well and are Warrant Officers 1st Cklass - RSMs and standing at the right hand of God to we sprogs one!

Looks OK to me but appears at some stage to have been brooch-mounted (not an uncommon occurrence) and somewhat tidied up.

Named or unnamed?

Paul

I'll bite! What makes you say 'brooch mounted', Paul? Maybe I need new glasses - or a new brain - but the marks I'd expect aren't leaping off the screen at me.

Peter

Personally, I don't like the fact that you have to kill all those Neats and cut off their feet to make oil. LOL

In any case, here is what I learned from Australians... When leather starts drying out or loosing its finished look, hit it with bee's wax.

Tom

Blacksmiths using traditional tools and methods also use beeswax to seal wrought iron. While the iron is still warm from the forge it is rubbed with a lump of beeswax which, of course, melts and even soaks in to some small degree, thus inhibiting rust.

It also has the advantage - on iron or leather both, I think, that it can be removed again, something professional conservators are very big on, as doing anything to an artifact which can't be undone is strang verboten!

Peter

Hello Veteran!

There certainly was a regiment called The Central India Horse, an 1921 amalgamation of the 38th and the 39th King George's Own Central India Horse respectively. Both these predecessor units were known as "Prince of Wales's Own" 1906-1910, which might have generated a badge combining the Prince of Wales's feathers and the "CIH". The regiment became a part of the Indian army in 1947.

/Jonas

Yes, the POW Central India Horse had the plumes on crossed lances as a headdress badge and collar dogs from 1906. On amalgamation it was numbered and called the "21st King George's Own Central India Horse" from 1922-1937 and I believe kept the POW plumes until 1937, when they were replaced with the "CIH" cipher over crossed lances.

With the exception of a half dozen short lived units [40th to 46th Cavalry] raised for WWI, it was the junior regiment of Indian cavalry, as had been the 38th and 39th pre-amalgamation. As Jonas says, it is now a unit of the Indian Armoured Corps and given the attitude of the old regiments of the Rayj, especially the cavalry, its just possible that they still carry the POW plumes somewhere on their kit.

Peter

Fantastic,

Fantastic is right! Definitely on my list of 'must-sees' when next I cross the big pond. Congratulations on a grade A exhibit!

Peter

The mention of the word 'Kaffirs', would today be considered very offensive. However, it's origins come from the Eastern Cape and the 1820 Settlers - the area above Port Elizabeth and East London became known as British Kaffraria and the people living there as 'Kaffirs' - this was descriptive of the area and not meant to be an insult.

Agreed that the word wasn't necessarily meant to be offensive as used 'back in the day' [to quote my students]. It originally came from Arabic and was picked up by the Europeans from Arab slavers, who used it to refer to their captives. The literal translation is 'unbeliever' or, as Hollywood would have it, 'infidel'. So, as used by Arabs both offensive and descriptive, but for others merely the latter.

My wife was friends with some Pakistani Muslim students when we lived overseas [Nigeria] and one used 'kaffir' of his roommate, who never made it out of bed for the pre-dawn prayers. Acceptable from a friend, fighting words from anyone else. She also learned - and nearly caused a coronary by repeating - the word generations of Tommies serving in India rendered as 'barnshoot'. Again, used 'affectionately' but in reality the same as a compound English word that almost rhymes with 'mother's trucker'.

Here endeth the lesson. Sorry - its the teacher in me! :rolleyes:

While digging thru my cedar chest, I came across this Unofficial MRE Recipe Booklet with envelope it came in and thought I'd post it for your enjoyment. Printed in 1985.

Bob

Sounds like a clear case of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's... um, ear. :cheeky:

Actually there was one Captain Brett in the CEF. His Details:

William Brett

Original member of the 2nd CMR with previous service in the BCH.

Cheers

Chris

My bad! I do remember now looking at him on the list but concluded that a Mounted Rifles officer was a less likely transfer to the Field Artillery than an OR or NCO with gunnery experience. Then, obviously, promptly forgot him when I wrote 'no Captains' [named Brett]. Good for you for double-checking! Us old farts miss stuff. :(

OR ... a previous collector "completed" the group for you.

It is certainly an offence to sell one's medals whilst still serving and in some jurisdictions, I believe, even to do so at all, so the seller may have erased his name before flogging it.

It's one of those arguably victimless crimes but the United States is making noises about banning all medal sales after several cases in which ex-servicemen, or in one case a very bold civilian, bought and wore campaign and even gallantry medals to which they were not entitled.

I also recall a case from the British Army in the mid-1800s [found it while doing a law essay years ago] in which a serving sergeant had bought a second set for his No. 2 uniform and they charged the seller, a time expired private. Always figured one of them must have annoyed somebody to have that charge laid, as it can hardly have been a rare occurence, especially when medals were still sewn to tunics, not pinned on.

Or perhaps the seller was down aon his luck but ashamed to have had to sell. ?Quien sabe?

Christerd

None of the Bretts listed on the CEF rolls is a Captain but here are the "likeliest suspects", in my opinion.

[The records merely show the Attestation [enlistment] forms but for most of them you can apply for the complete records. The price is very reasonable and the records tend to be medical forms and transfers between units, so of some use.]

Alfred Thomas Brett – enlisted in 70th Overseas Battalion, enlisted with rank of Colour Sergeant, “previous service w. Royal Reg't of Artillery”, commissioned later?

George William Brett - enlisted in 3rd Battery [R Cdn. Arty.], “17 years previous service w. Garrison Artillery, England”

Brett, John - enlisted 49th Battery, Canadian Field Artillery, previous service “4 months in 19th Regiment”

Brett, James Emos - enlisted in 68th O./S.[Overseas Depot] Field Battery, no previous military service but occupation given as “law student” - Officer material?

Brett, Philip - enlisted Canadian Field Artillery Depot D, previous military experience “6 yrs. Manchester Reg”, machinist by trade

Brett, Ronald, Lieutenant - originally enlisted in 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles, December 8, 1914; and

January 4th, 1917: Officer’s Declaration Paper - Unit: L.S.H.; previous service: “3 Years in H.L.I. [?]

Brett, Sidney Roy - enlisted May 26th, 1917 in a Railway Construction Battalion, occupation “Farmer”; and re-enlisted May 27th, 1918 in ??th Company, Royal Canadian Garrison Artillery, Esquimaux, British Columbia with rank of Gunner

Brett, William Frederick - enlisted 172nd Battalion, CEF with rank of Lieutenant

Hi all, is it possible to research soldiers from Canada ? I have a photo of a Captain Brett from Royal Canadian Artillery and wonder if there is any possibility to find out anything about him?

Best regards from Sweden

Christer

Christerd

There are 66 men named Brett listed in the Library and Archives Canada as ser4ving in WWI with the Canadian expeditionary Force. You can see their names and research them at this site: http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-110.01-e.php?PHPSESSID=0qhb99a615aa01ejgbqrudc8d0&q1=brett&q2=&q3=&interval=20

Regards,

Peter

"The most common "combat" use of bayonets is for crowd control. In fact, this is about the only "bayonet training" most troops get anymore. The bayonet is used somewhat differently in these situations. For one thing, the troops don't just rush at the crowd carrying their bayonet tipped rifles. They march forward, neatly lined up, with the rifles held so that the crowd sees a line of bayonets coming at them. The troops do this while marching in step, and are trained to bring their right feet down as heavily as possible. The sight of the advancing troops, the bayonets and the rhythmic thud of boots striking the ground usually causes the crowd to scatter."

One of the most intimidating crowd control I've ever seen was a video clip of NZ riot police getting ready to defend a soccer pitch against anti-South African protestors. The unit advanced with shields locked and batons projecting horizontally forward. Every time the right foot came down each man gave a grunt or shout and the baton pistoned forward about 12 inches. In lock step, right foot hammering down, it looked like a giant machine - a thresher made of men - scary as hell!

And in our 1812 reenacted battles, the guys love the "Charge bayonets" command. The muskets come down from 'port arms' in unison, with a loud shout as they come level and then the battalion marches forward in lock step, no rushing and no further noise or commands. As we always tell the crowd, and as your BA instructor says, "They wont be there tio be stabbed!" Even in 'play' it looks intimidating. For real, terrifying.