peter monahan

Very nice, Demir. Thanks for sharing. :cheers:

No St Bernard with cask lurking anywhere in the background?

Really cool photos, Chris! :cheers:

Hello Joe,

I've been told that "back in the day" the army would fire, collect and refire the same ball over and over again during gunnery practise. I have no proof of this but I was told this took place.

Brian

Quite true, Brian. At the British capture of "Fort Shelby" [Prairie du Chien, Illinois] in August 1814, the US had a gunboat on the Mississippi River firing a three-pounder at the British attackers, who cheerfully fired back the balls collected and with rether more effect. Also, during the so called "Siege of Delhi} in the Indian Mutiny, the British troops who had invested about 10% of the perimeter of the city paid local natives to collect cannon balls, fired from inside Delhi by the rebels, for 'recycling'. Of course it helped that both sides were using identical cannon!

8.5 pounds sounds like maybe a 9 pound cannon or perhaps - for an explosive shell - a howitzer, which were calibrated in 'inches', not by ball weight, and so a '6 incher'. Bronze would be quite rare in a solid shot, I think, but perhaps not so for an explosive shell. I'll see what I can dig up on that.

Peter

Another French periscope... but this time a little more exotic. It's screwed together, has a brass slider to protect the eyes in case a horrid German sniper shoots out the top mirror.

And you don't consider it unsporting of the Allied offciers to even employ such dastardly devices instead of showing real pluck and sticking their headsa up over the parapet?

Fascinating thread, BTW!

Peter

First and foremost, TAKE THEM OUT OF THE CASE!

Moisture in the air will make the paper stick to the glass and you'll never be able to remove them without severe damage.

Archival Methods, or Atlantic Protective Pouches, to name two, have a large selection of products that might serve the purpose. if you want to display them on a wall, maybe the adhesive backed label holders would work. The rest could be kept in a binder of baseball card sized sleeves.

He's right about the glass and sticking!

Would stamp collector's 'hinges' work? Several per card? Not meant for heavier objects like cards but designed not to leave marks when removed, I think.

It's the Order of the Rising Sun. Not sure which level, 6th class maybe.

And, as the tinting on the photo just hints at, the center of the medal is a gorgeous ruby-red. [it looks almost black in Lawrence's photo, at least on my monitor]. One of those medals it's almost worth buying just for the look! I'd suggest that the award makes it more likely he's naval than merchant marine, but just guessing. Is there a date on the photo?

Peter

The ribbon is for the Imperial General Service Medal - 1877-78-79.

I think you mean the African General Service Medal, Mervyn. :unsure:

Found this interesting fact....

On a average, between 1765 and 1793, 21½-percent of the crewmen in the Royal Navy were flogged each year, with the mean number of lashes being 5, though only 19-percent of the men serving under the ill-famed Capt. William Bligh were flogged, for a mean of only 1½ lashes

Yes, contrary to popular legend, Bligh was not actually a 'flogging captain'. I believe his failings as an officer were in other areas, and the presence of Christian Fletcher, the ringleader of the mutiny, had a lot to do with it, though the fact that Bligh also had a mutiny while serving as Governor of the Australian penal colony suggests he was far from blameless.

Remember that during the period you mention a very high presentage of sailors had been 'pressed' ('press ganged' = legally kidnapped) and were probably not really happy in the service. Additionally, the British blocakde of the French-Spanish coast meant some ships spent months and even years patrolling the same stretch of water, almost in sight of England in many cases. They were re-supplied at sea and when they put in to port - home - were denied shore leave because of the risk that they would 'run'. Add that to a wage rate that was decades old and widespread fraud by the quartermasters and it's no wonder that the Mutiny at the Nore occurred in 1796!

On the other hand, flogging was widely used and some captains revelled in it. One account I read - possibly fiction but likely based on fact - mentions the crew of a captain's barge studiously avoiding making eye contact with a new captain as he was rowed out to join his new command in case he was a 'flogger' and had them lashed for 'dumb insolence'. Yes, the perfect charge for sullen adolescents! "Don't you look at me in that tone of voice!" And while officers were [rarely] hanged for serious crimes, ordinary seamen could be 'flogged through the Fleet' on a grid set up in a longboat. Fifty lashes before the assembled company of each ship in a harbour, which would often be just a slower death sentence. A nasty, nasty business!

Gentlemen

I don't begin to have your detailed knowledge of uniforms, especially in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. However,in the period I do study a little - Napoleonic era - much of the minutiae of British dress regulations were honoured as much in the breech as in the observance. Ranting letters from Horse Guards notwithstanding, units on service anywhere but Britain, and even units there with bloody-minded colonels often were 'unable to comply' or just plain didn't. The unavailability of materials in overseas postings rarely seemed to prevent inventive officers producing new local variants of uniform though it often made compliance with new [unwanted] changes in the regulations 'impossible'.

Without actual photos for our period it is trickier to make definite statements but from period illustrations and letters it was certainly the case thast many uniforms were worn with flagrant disregard for the regulations, with everything from regimental tradition to supply problems to 'The new one looks funny." offered as a defence. I understand that these practices are supposed to have been tidied up in the Victorian period, but the British Badge Forum contains a number personal anecdotes about regiments wearing King's Crown badges until the supply ran out, regardless the regs., and similar.

I am highly skeptical of notion of universal compliance with dress regs. in most armies in most periods: Treasured customs, canny quartermasters and hidebound officers trump paper printed in far away London any day!

My tuppence and change.

Peter

it takes 2 trays of 25. So I have the grenades.... on the right size should be little boxes with fuses.... I need to find them now....

Every home should have one! Lovely, but what does it weigh with all that scrap iron in it? :cheeky:

Brian

No dig intended - I just didn't want Para38 not to post because English is tough for him. As you say, the translator programmes are 'awkward' at best and my French is more a source of embarassment, not pride, in this bilingual country.

BTW, I drove past, but not into, Woolsey Barracks a week ago. It is the site of the RCRs' museum and maybe the 1st Hussars as well and still has quite a collection of the big green trucks outside - so still a Reserve Force facility.

Peter

Bonjour Para38

Soyez bienvenus au GMIC.

Nous semblons être des speakers surtout anglais ici mais je sais que certains de nos membres européens parlent le français et je crois que nous pouvons utiliser des traductions informatiques si vous voulez nous écrire dans le français. Pourtant, vous devrez tenir compte de mauvaises traductions.

De nouveau, soyez bienvenus au groupe!

Peter

Fabulous! Are we guessing that Oscar was an Engineer?

If you mean British medals awarded for campaigns in Canada, there were four:

The Military General Service Medal with various bars for battles in the War of 1812

The Naval General Service Medal also with various bars for ship actions in the War of 1812

The North West Rebellion Medal for the Riel rebellion [1885]

The Canadian Military General Service Medal [1860-1866] with various bars for the Fenian Raids in the period 1860-1866 and the first Riel rebellion [1870]

plus the various British medals Canadians qualified for in various colonial campaigns: the Egypt Medal; The Queen's and King's South Africa medal and the various mmedals for the two World Wars and Korea.

Canada also used the British orders and gallantry decorations until quite recently, so the VC, DSO, MC and so on were awarded to Canadians until well after the Korean War.

Hope this helps

Peter

I've been holding off on this one, as it's a bit but, a fine yarn anyway.

I met a chap decades ago who had done his National Service in the Navy, as he 'hated walking' in his own words and the Navy was offering green stamps or something the day he reported to the recruit center. He had 2 marvelous anecdotes.

First, he shipped out to Malaya on an Army ship - yes, they did have them. His rank was "Leading Coder", abreviated "LCdr" and the pongos mistook him for a Lieutenant Commander, so he lived the high life enroute!

He was attached to a a capital ship - one of the big battleships, [sorry, name's gone]. As he was an educated bloke, he was put to work teaching the Chinese 'dhobi wallahs' [laundry boys] to read and write and, again, lived a high old life until the day his ship was called upon to shell a rubber plantation suspected to be full of guerrillas/terrorists.

He sat that one out in the mess, trying to read a paper over the noise and concussion. Imagine his surprise when the CPO called him on deck and told him he was leading the landing party sent ashore to 'count the bodies' [not just an American idea, apparently]. He insists that he was terrified and probably left fingerprints in the grip of the SMG he carried! However, luckily, no live 'terrs' remained. Nor did any bodies.

For what it's worth! And he did say he felt very lucky not to have been slogging through the greenery fighting the leeches and the bugs,

"upon the receiving your mutual assistant I will forward you all the document and the injuring picture I take with nurse."

I wanna see the injuring picture! Who does it injure? And how? A Gorgon thing happening or is Abbey just really really hard on the eyes? :speechless:

I'm with Hugh. The patina, to me, represents neglect and not honourable age, as the soldier would have worn it shiny. But, personal opinion, so no need to either accept or refute it!

Also agree with Kev re 'gentle cleaning'. Soap and water for the dirt and 5 minutes dipped in tomato paste/tomato ketchup, whose mild acidity will eat the tarnish but not the medal, folowup by a very good rinse off.

BUT, I would NOT dry it with paper towels: they can scratch but, more importantly, have sulphur dioxide in them and will hasten the development of new tarnish. Sulphur dioxide is the stuff that's 'acid' in non-acid free paper and the bane of museums and document collectors. Instead, use on of your oldest socks - clean, of course -or a jeweller's cloth to lightly buff dry.

Peter

Stuart

Thanks, again, for sharing! Now have tio take keyboard in for repairs, as I've drooled on it and shorted it out!

Peter

Damian wrote:

"I read about about Volunteer Training Corps in the Great War and wondered if it could be Nottingham University- but it seems it didn't get university status until 1947. Then- trawling the internet - found something on Upper Norwood Vounteer Training Corps."

Excellent! Glad my suggestion was some help. Where exactly is "Upper Norwood"? The UK or one of the colonies?

Really nice looking bayonet! If you get tired of it, let me know!

Peter

"On reverse of scabbard leather is U.N.V.T.C. 91." Might it be "U. N. V. Training Corps", which would agree with it's having been sold out of service - gone to a cadet corp, perhaps at a University?

Anyone know any "University of New V..." or "University of N... V..." in the old Empire?

Peter

Do you mean someone who did it more than once? regularly? Sounds like a complicated form of suicide to me!

We Canadians had Pte. "Smokey" Smith, a Native from the west Coast, who knocked out a Tiger with a PIAT, all by himself. He died only a couple years ago and was, when not running a fishing business [guiding tourists, I think] a regular on WWII battlefield tours to Italy. A gent I knew often roomed with Smoke and had a fund of stories, not all suitable for delictae ears!

Peter

Bear wrote:

"Hard to tell with the portraits being so tiny. Here is one that I always wondered about such as rank with the neat epaulettes. circa 1790"

For the Napoleonic period, British officers wore one epaulette if Ensigns, Lieutenants or Captains and two if Majors or above. I don't believe the 'decorations' on these lovely epaulettes are part of any official ranking system, as one was just supposed to 'know' the rank of the officer - narrowed down to the 2 'ranges' I mentioned - but not differentiated within them. I'd guess that the gentleman is a highly ranked officer but the actual devices may be a unit custom or just something the wearer thought looked martial and magnificent.

Similarly, in theory one might glean some hints from the style and arrangement of the lacing as well as the facings on the tunic: square ends vs pointed, arranged singly [as this case], in pairs, trios or even fours. Sadly, as officers had their own uniforms made by private tailors, they tended to wear what they liked and most higher ups didn't quibble. I own, for example, a tunic made after a contemporary portrait and while the square ended lace should be aranged in ten singles for the regiment portrayed[ Royal Newfoundland Regiment] it is in fact in 5 pairs. Maddening!

So, the gent in the first portrait should be an Ensign, Lt. or Captain, which fits with his apparent age, but he has buttoned his double breasted tunic so the facing colour on the lapels is not visible and the lacing you can see is decoration around the buttonholes and can't be linked to any unit or units!

Sorry!

Peter

"What did you do in the Great War, mein vater?"

"Signed a Great deal of paperwork. Oh, and went on bus tours with mein Alt Kamaraden."

Kind os sad, in one light - measured against the bars and the service they represented - of some of the frontliners.

Fascinating insight into the Germanic mind set of the time, though, as presumably these guys weren't shy enough to leave all this stuff in the closet and must have had some answer to "What did you really do in the war?" when they met a real trench rat.

Stuart wrote "Franklin also states that gorgets were worn with two rosettes... Does anyone know when gorgets were discontinued?"

The gorgets were worn on duty only by the Officer of the Day by 1800 [and up to 1830] but seem to have been popular, as they show up with some regularity in portraits. The 'roses' are the ends of the ribbon on which the gorget hangs and, as the name suggests, were rosettes made by gathering the ribbon [stiched into shape], both attaching the gorget and adding a nice touch to the effect.

Nothing useful to add as to regiment - the breastplate emblem looks like the infamous 'regimental blob' to me - but I believe the experts are spot on with the date range!

Brian

Saw your post yesterday but got hauled away from the computer for duty with Dad's Taxi & Small Loan Co.

There were no official lancers units in the Canadian Army as far as I know but many of the Militia regiments were enamoured of the pomp and glory of the British light cavalry - look, for example at the beutiful silvered helmets worn by the 10th Brant Dragoons - and the present Royal Canadian Dragoons (Reserves) have a mounted musical ride, a la the RCMP, which features lances.

So, if these heads are Canadian, which is quite possible, my best guess is that they were made up for a ceremonial unit - mounted guard squad such as the Gov. Genera's Horse Guard or some such. I would tend to that opinion too because, oddly enough, the seem too small for batlle use, even at 10.5 inches. The modern lances I've seen intended for actual use all had heads which were triangular in cross section - worse wounds and easier to withdraw - and along with headsof 9-10 inches had shafts which included straps running down the shaft for 18" or so, to prevent their being cut off by swordsmen. That pattern seems to have been pretty universal in the Empire - I've seen 4,5 British and several Indian lances - and in two lances which I believe were South American.

The rebels of 18137 here in Upper Canada armed themselves with pikes. In fact, the blacksmith at Holland Landing, north of Toronto, one Samuel Blount was either hanged or transported - can't recall - for arming the scurvy knaves. OTOH, the use of screws seems fairly modern - I would have expected nails or rivets in anything made much before the late 1800s.

It might be worth checking some period photos for similar lance points. All I can suggest at this point.

Another intriguing puzzle!

Peter