peter monahan

Lovely early Victorian group! Very nice write up too!

Peter

I Have a book "Nova Scotia's Part in the Great War" Compiled and edited by M. Stuart Hunt (Captain R.O.), 1920. This is a great reference book it contains a lot of information and photos of Officers from Nova Scotia. It has KIA, WIA, decorations, promotions, etc. I am willing to share. I need the officer's name and unit at least. I will do my best to help those doing research. This is a free service. As long as I can keep up with the questions.

Note: I also have Kingslake's 8 vol. set on the "Invasion of the Crimea" 1868

Captain George Albert, Army Field Historian

George

Thanks for your very generous offer! One of the thinks that keeps me coming back to this site - even though I no longer collect - is not only the huge breadth of knowledge held by the members but their invariable willingness to share it! Welcome aboard, sir!

Peter (born in Pennsylvania, but raised in NS)

This is a photo of a display I did at the 2005 Company of Military Historians annual conference in Providence, Rhode Island. It won the Loren Miller Medal.

Luckily for the peace of mind of the members, there is no drooling smiley face!

What are the chances of getting some close up shoots of the various uniforms? Also, I have to ask, where & how did you get yr hands on the colours?

Envious and Curious,

Peter

The "MG" & "LG" without wreath series of badges were discontinued by Army Council Instruction 23 of 1932, but were still appearing in PVCN 1936 & Small Arms Training Volume 1 of 1937.

It's probable that they were being worn by TA Hotchkiss Gunners, the Hotchkiss was phased out of the Regular Army by 1940, the Regulars had adopted LG in wreath in 1921, it's likely that the TF adopted the "LG" without wreath as it now stood for Light (Machine) Gunner.

The MG & LG series of badges without wreath were declared obsolete by List of Changes in Ordnance Material 5067/52.

You mean you can't qulify for "range taker" by being the fastest 'mouse man' - "By the numbers, point and click!" in yr missile battery? :whistle:

The medal is missing a black star in the centre - it is the insignia of the French Colonial order Black Star of Benin. The ribbon should be a light blue - it appears to have faded

BTW, the award of this medal was, as has already been suggested, made to non-French recipients and, as is evident in this case, need have no connection to Benin or any other French colony and sometimes only the most tenuous tie to France and her wars. So it would be quite conceiveable that it might go to a British officer who had never met a frenchman until the day this was pinned on him!

Mervyn Mitton wrote:

"for the 'Blood and Thunder' ask your library to bring out of the archives, copies of the Illustrated London News for the dates of the different campaigns. The drawings are superb - shown as seen by the artist at the time and the write-ups always quite detailed."

One of the few survivals from my collecting days is a lovely framed illustrationfrom the London Illustrated News of the death of Major Wigram Battaye - one of three brothers, all Indian Army officers, referred to as "the Fighting Battyes" - at the Battle of Futtehbad in April, 1879. The main illustration is a 'busy' scene like this one but accompanying it are the cameos, one of the original pencil sketch of Battye as he falls from his horse and the other a wonderful head and shoulders portrait of him in his dress uniform with turban. A lovely thing, which I 'stole' from a dealer beacuse no one else cared to buy it, and still cherish.

Helen

The verse quoted is from "Arithmetic on the Frontier", by Rudyard Kipling. A very interesting poem in that, like a very few of his short stories and other poems, it suggests he had an opinion on the British in India that wasn't pure Jingoism. I used to know his stuff well and while much of it is 'fluff' and 'good yarns', some few works shows deeper sesibilities. A much underrated story tellers these days, largely because of his political views I believe.

"Tangent Alert": Monahan maundering agin!

The story "The Man Who Was" tells of a British officer, captured in the Crimea and more than half mad, who makes his way back to his regiment's post on the Nrth West Frontier. At one point Kipling describes how the regiment had formerly drunk the Queen's health "in broken glass", that is by hurling the glasses into the fire after the toast so they could not be sullied by use for anything post-toast. Does that make sense? Anyway, Kipling says something like - don't have my book in front of me either - "these days the only things broken are British promises". Surprisingly cynical for the man often touted as the bard of the Empire. Some of his Boer War poetry is surprisingly insightful on the topic of the waste in war too. And of course, he was a prime mover in the creation of the Commonwealth War graves Commission after his son was killed with the Irish Guards in WWI :off topic:

I came across this one today. HaHa!!!

"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me."

-- Nathaniel Lee, on being consigned to a mental institution, circa 17th century.

It may have been Lee, then, who in later years, while running for public office, made much of the fact that he had a certificate that said he was sane, while his opponent did not!

In the Great War, of course, these orders were handed out to Allied officers. I once owned one to a Captain Branfoot,37th Lancers (Indian Army) who served on until the 1940s in one of the princely states of India. I think it was, just as a 'pretty thing" the nicest piece I ever owned. Came with a story too: the bloke who sold it to me lived next to a former messmate of "Brannies" who was wont to mutter under his breath that Branfoot got it as a Christmas gift and consolation prize because he didn't quite qualify for an MC! The story was that the various Allied states sent round job lots to the British War Office, who handed them out (after, presumably, writing a generic citation). Certainly Branfoot never served anywhere he's have fought beside or even near any Romanians!

Sorry...I don't understand your post?????

Speagle

I had written a long, involved and highly improbable theory on how this hat and these buttons (which clearly don't match the hat) had come into being as a 'set' when I realized that the hat was being advertised as "Australian" and not "AUSTRIAN". I scrapped the whole post and should have left the space blank. My apologies for the cryptic posting, meant to imply that I'd typed before I'd thought!

Peter

What a lovely piece! Thanks for sharing.

Peter

Never mind! Put mouth in gear before engaging brain.

The plate is a thin stamped brass, and may have been gilded at some point. It measures 8 x 11 cm.

A lovely piece! Does it have provenance? I ask only because I know they're being reproed for reenactors and collectors.

I have no reason to believe it's not a good one - don't have the knowledge - but I suspect it wasn't cheap and if there are repros. around almost certainly somebody out there will be 'aging' them sooner or later to pass off as originals. I'd think you could find examples on-line from some of the French museums.

In the Napoleonic period (which I reenact) a British soldier was expected to fire 3 times a minute simply to be considered trained and veteran battalions could sometimes do four. Individuals could do even better but 'rapid independent' was not in the lexicon of commands for that period. Companies, or in rare cases half companies fired both ranks at the same time, so no movement was required save the 'locking up' of the rear rank - a half step forward on the levelling of the musket so the 2nd rank's pan's didn't flash the faces of the front rank.

Firing by companies - either from each end of a 10 company battalion or by wings (Coys. 1&6, 2&7, etc) laid down a good base of fire but gave the individual companies more time to wait for the slowest guy and allowed the smoke to disipate slightly to improve aim. It was occasionally referred to as 'rolling fire' and the machine-like tempo, which can be kept up till the cartridge boxes are empty, is very intimidating from the opposite side of the field!

Battalion volleys, as we employ them at least, serve to 'open the ball' - easy to do once with everyone already loaded - or as a shock tactic, often just before a bayonet charge - which in 1800-1815 is a slow, disciplined but again very intimidating movement. Going in with the knife is not something you want to do with loaded muskets - too much chance of accidental discharges.

Three rank formations and firing had largely disappeared by 1800 in the British army - we're not sure exactly when - and I don't know when/if it was officially re-introduced during the Victorian or whether the movie makers of Zulu took a liberty with the regs. It concentrated the fire, especially useful as a battle progressed and the misfire rate from dirty muskets rose but I would have thought that 'modern' breechloaders like the Snider and Martini would have rendered that consideration moot.

My tuppence worth

Lovely stuff! Every time I see that you've doena new post I say to myself "Self," I say, "time to get envious again!". I guess, like real estate, its all about location, but you seem to have the D***l's own luck as well. Lucky man!

Peter

Hello Everyone,

I recently received a British War Medal 1939 - 45 with the following naming,

6 CK BIR SINGH, 1 PUNJAB R.

I liked several things about this medal, the 1st Punjab Regiment, the low regimental number of 6 and what I thought was CK for Cook.

Brian

I think the cooks have it. My recollection of obscure ranks is not what it once was but the only other one that comes to mind is "Chowkidar" (watchman) and I'm sure it was obsolete by the period of this medal. Single digit serial numbers are always cool though. I once owned a group to a Rissaldar Majro of Punjab cavalry - 1890-1918 - and his father, also an RM had regmtl no. 1 ! And, yes, besides RSMs, cooks and batmen make the army work!

Peter

Any ideas on the word above MARKLEW?

Only that the first letter looks as if it might be a capital 'J' or 'I'. 'John'? 'James'? Too long for 'Ian'

Peter

The arm badge is the famous jerboa emblem of the 7th Armoured Divison, the "Desert Rats" who helped chase Rommel's Africa Korps out of North Africa. However, it doesn't look as if the 1st Foresters served there, so its a bit of a puzzle. This black version was worn by the 4th Armoured Brigade of the 7th Div. However, the infantry component of the 4th was the 1st King's Royal Rifle Corps, not the Foresters.

Here's some info. from a history of the Foresters in WWII:

"Our fortunes turned with the 8th Army's victory at El Alamein in November 1942. The 14th Battalion took part with distinction in this battle. It had been originally formed as the 50th Battalion in 1940, but was renumbered after a few months and then, in July 1942, had been converted to a motor battalion. In January 1943, the 2/5th Battalion, by now renamed the 5th Battalion, joined the 1st British Army in Tunisia and was followed shortly by the 2nd Battalion."

Perhaps your QM Sergeant had been in the 4th .and continued to wear their badge, though I think that would be against regulations, or (more liklely, I'm afraid) some one has simply added some or all of the badges. There are other threads on this site about such things, including how to tell (sometimes) whether insignia are original or add ons. Is the thread all old? matching? 'sunken into' the tunci fabric?

Peter

I found this, quite by accident, and thought it interesting. Several of the letters marvel at the oddities of the French, who use dogs to churn butter and guard cattle. One comments smugly that his regiment was the only India unit to refuse Britsh bread and biscuits and so got "attah" [flour] and several more comment on the hospitals and medical treatment. Sadly, at least two mention the topic which apparently caused most concern to British censors: that no "sound man" would go home, only those maimed for life. This, rather than simply the awful casualities & nature trenche warfare were cited later in the war as major causes of unrest and declining recruitment among the British Indian Army.

The letters are found here: http://worldsikhnews.com/29%20April%2020090/World%20War%20I%20through%20Sikh%20Soldiers%20Letters.htm

Im not that good with British Millitaria but to me it looks like a WWI American Ordanence Corp cap badge.

I agree that it doesn't look British - a very distinctive look but unfamiliar.

Here is a very little info. about the unit's service during the relevant period:

EGYPT MEDAL 1882

awarded with no bar, 202 medals to 19th Hussars

bar TEL-EL-KEBIR, 374 to 19th Hussars

bar EL-TEB, 410 to 19th Hussars

bar SUAKKIN 1884, 218 bars to 19 Hussars

bar ABU KLEA, 135 to 19th Hussars

bar KIRBEKAN, “One squadron 19 Hussars”

bar SUAKIN 1885, 19 Hussars “present”

KHEDIVE'S EGYPTIAN STAR (1882-1891)

Awarded to all recipient's of the Egypt Medal in one of four versions. 19th Hussars probably received either the Star dated '1882' with the 'no bar' medals or the version dated 1884-6 if they qualified for any of the bars listed above.

(Major L.L. Gordon's British battles and Medals)

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_cavalry_regiment/19th_hussars.htm

SOUTH AFRICA MEDAL

1300 names on rolls for 19th Hussars

It's likely therefore that he would have earned the Egypt medal with one or more bars and possibly a SA medal as well.

The medal rolls are available for viewing at the Imperial War Museum and there are many researchers who will search for names for, generally quite reasonable fees. Hope this is of some small help. BTW, I noticed your reference on a geneaology site to his family's presence in India (Secundarbad, 1897 I believe). In answer to your question there, it would be very unlikley for a private soldier (as distinct from an officer) to get 'home leave' from an overseas posting. I'd go so far as to say 'almost unheard of', so if his family was there, he was as well.

Peter

JPL, you missed the link by one click.

This is the order of precedence

And like JPL mentioned, UN medals aren't treated as foreign. I think this might have something to do with the fact the founder of the UN Peace Keeping Force was the then Canadian Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson. The medals were incorporated into the Canadian honours' system while he was still in office. This "trend" ultimately led to NATO and MFO medals being included.

It is also of note, and possibly part of the decision as well, that Canada is (or at least was until very recently - not 100% sure on this) one of the very small number of nations which has participated in EVERY UN peacekeeping mission with at least a token force. As I say, I'm not absolutely sure this is still correct, though I believe it was until the last decade or so. It's also the case that, since Korea, Canada has not been involved in any conflict as a belligerent, so that home grown casmpaign awards are thin on the ground.

I have been told/read somewhere that the other two nations to share the distinction are/were Ireland and Fiji, however improbable that last may sound. Sorry I can't cite sources, but I'm sure some of the other Canucks on the list can confirm ior debunk this.

Peter

I recently aquired this Conquest of Naples non-wearable medallion. I found it on the 1815 Paris Mint list as a Laskey #68. The size is 40mm in diameter and approximately 4mm thick. My questions are what was the purpose of these medals and does it have any collectability or value?

Thank you,

Garth

Garth

I don't know thing one about value, but here's my take on your medal:

the Napoleonic period saw, in much of Europe, a fascination with 'artistic things'. The Industrial Revolution and widespread literacy created a new [monied] middle class who began not only to read the news but also to decorate their homes with prints, cheap paintings and 'objet d'art'. Many of the latter were curios from the colonies or reproductions of Greek, Roman and Egyptian artifacts but patriotic busts, printss and medallions were also very popular.

In England, for example, a Scot named Davidson personally paid for medals in gold silver and pewter to go to all members of the Royal Navy present at the battle of the Nile or at Trafalgar. Many copies of his medals and others like them were struck by various commercial types to sell to the general public as souvenirs. Think "Chuck and Diana's wedding"! I was in london the next week and the stuff was knee deep in the streets.

Many of the nineteenth century examples are truly beutiful: well made and pleasingly designed. I'm sure there are collectors of same but, sadly, they elicit little interest among we who collect ' the real thing' - campaign medals and decorations.

My tuppence worth and more!

Peter

Sgt Major Morgan, 4th Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers, 1904 wearing the single crown of that rank. Note he also wears an officers pattern full dress tunic as denotes his rank.

Nice one! When I took on the post of SM to the "Crown Forces, North America", a group of units who re-enact the War of 1812, I was the first SM to wear a tarted up NCO,s uniform as opposed to a mock officer's kit. My tunic is single breasted, not double, I still wear my Sergeant's sash and 4 stripes on my right arm. Previous holders of the post/rank have worn officer's tunics and hooks but as there are only 2 or 3 contemporary illustrations of what was a very new rank in 1812, one has a deal of freedom in designing the uniform. I like the idea of just the crow, though. Very classy!

Peter

It looks like it could be a Badge awarded by "The Ancient Order of Foresters", a friendly society formed in 1790

In 1845 the order had 1456 "Courts" (Lodges) with 65,909 Memebrs

1898 it had 4899 courts and 731,442 Members

By the late 19th Century Forsetry had spread over the world, particularly to the British Colonies but also to the USA.

I cannot post a photo of the emblems but a brief description is :

A shield divided by a cross and has an escutcheon in the centre with a bugle horn and bows and arrows. In the top left quarter of the shiled is a pair of clasped hands, in the top right quarter three running stags, in the lower left quarter is a chevron, a lamb and flag above the chevron and a bugle horn below. In the lower left quarter is a quiver over a bow arrow and bugle horn. Above the shiled is a stag's head issuing out of a coronet. Flanking it are the figures of two forester (both male before 1892), one male on female thereafter.

Ralph

"By Jove, I think he's got it!" Well done, that man! I frequently drive by a large office tower in Toronto, Canada owned by the IOF [independent Order of Foresters] which is indeed an insurance company but I don't know what connection, beyond the obvious one of a common foundation, it has with the fraternal order these days. I've certainly not heard of the Foresters as a fraternal group in Canada, at least to the best of my recollection. Anyone else know their current status? "Bueller? Bueller?..."

PETER