peter monahan

At a guess, its a woman's brooch for someone who had two sons or a son and a husband or even two brothers serving in the two regiments. A very nice little piece. Pity the story is lost!

Peter

Mervyn

Check this site for details of a very similar shako - Victorian - which sold for L895!

http://www.helmetsandheadgear.co.uk/British.htm

Yours is certainly not a field uniform if dated 1900. The style, btw, comes from French kepis of the Crimean War period - google "Albert kepi" for an early example.

More lovely stuff. You were clearly born under a lucky star!

Peter

I have a good friend, from Galveston, Texas, who was presented a US Army sabre when he retired from the Army Reserve. The sabre spent 3 days submerged in salt walter after hurricane Ike when his entire house was flooded. Is there any place around that might be able to repair the saltwater damage?

Mike

The first thing to do, oddly enough, is to wash it, thoroughly in freshwater, to get all the salt out of it. I would then use WD40 ("water displacer 40")sprayed thoroughly into every crack and crevice then wiped, soaked up again with clean clothes and replaced by a very light coat of gun oil or sewing machine oil. If at all feasible to do any 'take-down' such as dismounting the handgrips, pommel, etc. do that first and re-assemble again after the final oily-rag wipedown.

Hope this helps.

Peter

One of the most succesful - but, least known campaigns in WW2 was the Sth. African attack on Ethiopia. Our troops - 28,000 only - had to motor from Capetown, up through Kenya - collecting troops on the way. The Italians had 250,000 men available, but , and I have read a number of books on this - most did not support Fascism and they retreated. We captured thousands and it was a great problem as to where to take them. Many were sent to Canada and also, Sth. Africa.

Yes, and when the British command reported on and asked for assistance with the large number of POWs and were asked by London to give a specific number, their response was "100 acres of ORs and 10 acres of officers" !

This is the campaign medal for the punitive expedition in 1900. Please give the man's details from around the rim and we can check on him. There is a Bar - rare - 'Defence of Legations' and that is one of the highest value medals you can find.

According to Major L.L. Gordon's "British Battles and Medals, one of the standard references for British campaign medals, there are 3 possible bars: Taku Forts; Defence of Legations; and Relief of Pekin. The Defence of Legation bar was issued to 3 officers and 389 other ranks (British Army). There were a large number of Indian units, both infantry and cavalry who earned the medal and literally thousands of medals were issued to Royal Navy crews.

Hope this helps a little.

Peter

The extension to the grip was to steady the hand when firing - you only used one hand in a duel. To fight a duel was illegal and the participents could be sent to prison - however, the magistrates, mostly, came from the same Class and were , therefore, sympathetic.

This website has more info. on the duel and a lovely shot of very similar pistols, though the second pair have detachable shoulder stocks - not on for duelling, don't you know.

BTW, deliberately missing one's opponent was known as 'deloping' and was considered the height of style and bravery because, of course, one couldn't count on the opponent making the same generous gesture! In fact, if both parties were of such a mind, the duel would likely not occur, as it was the first duty of seconds to try and persuade their principals to shake hands and make up. Only after such an offer had been refused were they to conduct the duel. And certainly there were cases in which be the cold SOBER light of dawn the injured party thought better of his challenge and agreed to a reconciliation.

And then there was Marechal Foch of the French Army, who always bought a one way ticket to the suburb of Paris where duels were customarily conducted planning, as he said, to use his opponent's ticket for the return portion! Not sure if or how many he killed but he fought quite a number of duels.

Shaka set very strict rules and the hands of his warriors were examined after a battle to make sure they had blood on them - failure in this could cost their lives.

I will continue the other Zulu thread on their artefacts - but, will add further spears and weapons to this one. I hope it is of interest ?

And, apparently, the traditional 'cry' [shout] after a fatal thrust with the spear was "I have eaten!". A very intimidating bunch of warriors indeed.

Peter

Hi can anyone help identify this old sabre found in the attic of an old farmhouse in Wales.

Steph

Is the hand grip wooden on this piece? I just noticed that it looks as if it might be, which I think is unusual for British swords. Or is it just very old black leather and missing the wire wrap?

Peter

This pattern was in use in the first half of the 19th century.... A similar sword was also used by buglers in the Indian Army of the Raj. Are there any markings on the sword or scabbard?

Jonathan

Jonathon

I was intrigued by your reference to the Indian Army. I used to know a bit about them but I can't recall ever seeing a 'two bar hilt' on an Indian-worn sabre. One possible exception is a not very clear picture of a trooper of the Bengal Horse Artillery in an 1852 water colour (artist unknown. It seemed to me that most swords & sabres were either a copy of what the British Army was wearing at the time or native tulwars. Can you point me to a reference or illustration, please? Thanks

Peter

And here's a 'thrum cap or Welsh wig". A friend of mine spent all one winter making one and , yes, it really is as ugly as it looks! But, a perfect project for somebody with waaay too much time on his hands. :7)

Peter

PS image comes from this site - quite informative: http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/images/H-Thrum.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/hats.htm&usg=__w7s4zhb_yy_Sk74TeLUUcNZQkt4=&h=262&w=250&sz=20&hl=en&start=1&sig2=JTE_UljEdMvdcNd36f7PoA&tbnid=pmdN_ABuIfrLDM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dthrum%2Bcap%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG&ei=eCl4Sri2MeGrmQf25YTjBg

WOAH! Brit soldiers actually wore these?

TacHel

Remember that most soldiers, most of the time, care about A)warm and B)dry. Fashionable comes a poor third after those two, hence the many many "non-reg." outfits and bits one sees in period photos and even paintings. At sea, there's nobody to notice except yr mess mates and, unless you're that way inclined, you probably don't want to look too good!

Much the same for armies, I'm sure: save 'sexy' for parades and walking out. When I'm soldierin', I want a hat that does something, not a head decoration.

My tuppence worth!

Peter

Hi Mervyn,

I have read that the area you refer to as a "V" found on the kris as well as the kukri is meant to represent the trident of the Hindu God Siva. Years ago it was said to be a blood-letting device as you are not to draw the weapon unless you "spill" blood. I think this was more of a Western misconception of the notch and the representation of the God the more likely.

As always, I stand to be corrected.

Regards

Brian

Brian

Absolutely right: a Western myth!

If you read John Masters' wonderful work on his time with the Gurkhas - called Bugles and a Tiger - he describes his men using their kukris to clear brush for fields of fire while on manuvers. Hardly the use a sacred blood-eating blade would be put to. As someone else has pointed out, however, it not only perpetuates the bloodthirsty image of the Gurkha but provides a great excuse to say 'no' when some tourist wants to see a kukri unsheathed.

In his book, Masters also mentions the almost reverent manner in which his riflemen treated their British officers. During said brush clearing, one of the men lopped off his own thumb and approached the Medical officer to ask if he could reattach it. This in the 1930s, mind, and Masters remarks that he was 'half serious' and would not have been very surprised if the Doctor Sahib has said 'yes'.

As to the 'notch', and I know this is not a very satisfying answer, it may well be there because "That's how grandad made them, and his granfer too." There must be a reason but it may well be 'tradition' these days, with the original logic lost in the mists of time.

Peter

It appears to be a locket - I think I see a hinge and a'button' to open it on the edges. Any info inside? A lovely little piece, BTW

Peter.

A quick scan of Cdn news sources provides the following info. - two articles on drug use in the CF. BTW, during the enquiry into the deaths of 4 Cdn soldiers killed by 'friendly fire' from a US warplane, that the American pilots were flying 8-12 hours each way to get on station over Afghanistan and were therefore, apparently with the knowledge of their commanders and medics, on a steady diet of amphtamines - 'uppers'- and sleeping pills. Both sad and scary!

September 11, 2007

?

OTTAWA ? Some 250 soldiers who tested positive for drug tests, were not allowed to serve in Afghanistan, the Canadian Forces confirmed Tuesday.

According to documents obtained by CBC News, the military has tested almost 7,000 soldiers since mandatory drug testing of personnel headed to Afghanistan began in 2006.

The results were for the period September 2006 to last May, which show that most of the soldiers who failed tested positive for marijuana. The report also said some military personnel were found to have traces of harder drugs such as cocaine, methamphetamine and amphetamines in their systems.

?When you want to send our soldiers there, you don?t want to send kids who are addicted or who have a drug problem. They have to be clean,? said Liberal Defence critic Denis Corderre.

The Canadian Press , May 2008

Random tests conducted on more than 3,000 military personnel from coast to coast found more than five per cent of Canadian soldiers and sailors in non-combat roles tested positive for illicit drug use.

The results provided to the Canadian Press show that over a four-month period, 1,392 sailors in the navy's Atlantic and Pacific fleets and 1,673 soldiers in the army's four regions and training branch were subjected to blind drug testing.

Averaged out, 6.5 per cent of those tested in the navy and five per cent in the army indicated positive results, almost entirely for marijuana.

Lt.-Col. Lisa Noonan, spokeswoman for the chief of military personnel, said from Ottawa that the use of illicit drugs in the general Canadian population is about 12 or 14 per cent.

"So we are less than half of the prevalence rate of the Canadian population," she said.

The results have prompted broader testing across the entire Canadian military ? roughly 65,000 regular members and 24,000 reservists.

"Any kind of drug usage, of course, is not condoned in the Canadian Forces," said Noonan.

"We have a number of programs and policies in place to deter this drug usage and to continue to ensure that we get it down as close to zero per cent as possible."

Testing staff caught soldiers off guard

The blind drug tests, which began in mid-December last year, were done without prior notice.

She denied the tests had anything to do with a series of high-profile cocaine and marijuana charges laid following a military sting operation that netted a half dozen non-commissioned members aboard a coastal patrol ship based at CFB Esquimalt on Vancouver Island in early 2006.

Noonan said the tests will be stepped up to eventually look at drug prevalence rates on every single base and air force wing.

The information will give the military a better overall indication of drug use, she said.

"Then we can adjust our programs and policies accordingly," she said, adding that the Canadian Forces' policy of zero-tolerance won't change.

Soldiers testing positive are treated, not fired

Forces' officials explained a positive drug use result does not necessarily mean the end of a military career because the Canadian Forces invests too much time, effort and money into training and maintaining its personnel.

Results from a safety-sensitive drug test cannot be used in court.

But there is an "administrative follow up" consisting of a medical assessment for drug usage, a determination of whether a treatment program is required, and whether the person will be removed from his or her position.

If that person does carry through with the action required, they may be able to resume their position as before.

The Forces also operates a separate mandatory testing program in so-called "high-risk, safety sensitive" military occupations, which includes all personnel deployed to Afghanistan. That program has been in place for two years.

In documentation supplied to the Canadian Press, the military said initial testing of combat-bound personnel in the spring of 2007 "saw 4.3 per cent of soldiers test positive, whereas more recent testing [winter 2008] found only 1.8 per cent of soldiers test positive."

Noonan attributed the drop largely to the drug testing.

Thomas

I have only a slight acquaintance with the current crop of Canadian soldiers - half a dozen acquaintances serving - but I do live very near our largest base, Canadian forces Base Borden, and read the news locally and nationally. To start, I would say that the 'military culture' still tolerates if not promoting heavy drinking. Young men living together in sometimes high stress situations and a very 'male' ethos make alcohol use a given. In fact, a recent new story says that the police in Barrie, the city nearest to base Borden, will have their evening patrols reinforced by Military Police from the Base when the bars let out on weekends. Speaks for itself, no? And I certainly remenber the furor a decade ago when Canadians with the UN Kosovo force were discovered drinking and partying with nurses at a hospital there. My response was "well'duh! Did you think they spent off duty time studying for MENSA?"

I suspect that the unofficial policy towards at least 'soft' drugs, as for gays in the US military, is 'Don't ask, don't tell.' It would be miraculous if the demographic represented by soldiers, especially in the combat arms - heavily male, 18-30 - did not mirror the behaviour of their 'civvy' peers. In other words, soft drug - marijuans, hashish, some pills - use is certainly going on and may be common. Not sure what the military penalties are and whether their more effective as deterents than civilian criminal law, but I doubt it: the effectiveness of any deterent is dependent on the potential offender thinking ahead to possible consequences, always problematic with young males! I know that one unit going out to Afghanistan last year had their luggage searched and a half dozen privates were found to have illicit drugs. I believe they were held out of the rotation but don't recall seeing any other reference to their long term fate.

And finally, the Toronto Star, one of our larger newspapers, has very recently published a series of stories on Cdn soldiers who - almost certainly suffering PTSD, have been arrested and in some cases jailed for dugs, alcohol and violence, often domestic violence. The stories point out both the apparent reluctance of the military authorities to deal with or even acknowledge the problem and the kinds or pressures which have led to such self-destructive behaviours. Another 'dirty little secret' from a proud, and deservedly proud, group of men.

Absolutely gorgeous! Probably one of the least practical helmets ever issued to British troops but definitely one of the nicest looking, maybe THE most pleasing for infantry. You lucky, lucky man, you!

Peter

Brian your quote of, "It is hard to imagine that the military could be so "lost" to drink to actually need such medals to award temperance.", is perhaps indicative that while we can all easily imagine the bloody battlefields, and the need to reward participation and valour through medals, the unbearable, nervous waiting between contacts is not mentioned. And maybe your second quote of, "I understand that there were many sports clubs started within the military of the times to give soldiers more to do with their off hours than drink." is more valid than we might initially perceive.

Along with the sports movement were the reading rooms introduced, especially in places like India, to provide 'improving' pastimes. Partly the result of Victorian social mores, which justified much imperialism and capitalism by coupling it with social reforms: universal literacy/schooling movements; temperance movements; prison reform , the Salvation Army and so on. However, one has only to look at the defaulters and court martial records, never mind the stats on alcohol consumption, in the first half of the 19th C to see the sheer scale of the problem and extrapolate on the costs to military efficiency.

One regiment stationed in the Canadas in 1810-1815 had over 300 courts martial of private soldiers in that period, over 75% of which were linked to alcohol: drunk on parade, drunken assault, theft to pay for alcohol, etc etc. Before the provision of permanent barracks, many soldiers were billeted in taverns and even when they had proper billets, alcohol was the cheapest and often the only 'entertainment' available to illiterate, single men posted in the many corners of the empire. Alcohol played a huge part in social life at all levels of society. Reading journals and biographies of the period 1775 - 1840, one could easily form the impression that most of the upper classes began drinking before noon and carried it on till they went to bed! Many of them may not have been sober for years, at least not by our standards.

So, the temperance, which often seems a bit comical to modern viewers, had a serious and important purpose and attempted to address a major social problem of the time. Yes, going cold turkey and sticking to it in the face of social pressure, aspersions on one's manhood and constant temptation probably did deserve a medal!

Last note: I have regretted for years not picking up a "Total Abstinence" medal I saw in a Toronto shop: on the same pale blue ribbon as the medals above, hallmarked silver, diamond shaped and featuring a Sphinx on the front [awarded to one of the units who wear that badge], named on the reverse to a sergeant. A lovely piece! In fact, I believe that members of the temperance movement were referred to as 'blue ribboners' in popular parlance. As someone said, a fascinating glimpse of another facet of life in a pervious age.

Hopefully, they won't do like the Canadian Memorial Cross, which can now be awarded to 3 next-of-kin. We now have a situation where there probably will be 3 Memorial Crosses to the same recipient. Adds a new dimension to the collecting of this award.

Jean-Paul

I've seen one photo - wasn't smart enough to cut it out or copy it - of relatives of a Canadian soldier killed in Afghanistan. The man's mother (?) and girl friend/partner are both wearing Mother's Crosses as they watch the casket unloaded from a plane. I can only assume that the crosses were given them - probably unnamed, I'd guess - by the notification party or some member of the reception party.

Anyone else seen anything similar lately: very quick (& multiple) awards of the Mother's Cross?

Peter

Mervyn

I'm afraid I can't shed any light on the staffs - By the time I got there Nigeria had gone through independence and a civil war (the Biafran War) and things British were in short supply except for some of my acquaintances who bore distinctive names such as MacDonald Owerri and Thompson Abache. Apparently the custom was to name a son after the local District Commissioner, using his surname as a first name. I used to think it very odd but here in multicultural Canada it is becoming very common to meet kids with names like Shannon Chen, Kevin Singh and Ivan O'Shea.

I believe the "Third Class Chief", while arguably very arrogant, was an attempt to sort out local leaders according to their importance in the political scheme of things - their 'pay grade' if you will. In southern Nigeria, at least when I was there, "Chief" was so widely used as to be virtually meaningless except as an indicator that the bearer felt important.

The various classes would have received, besides differing rank symbols, different pensions/stipends, differing levels of ceremony and deference on official occasions and so on. The British used a similar system in India to rank the rulers of the various princely states.

Sorry the previous post didn't open - in the middle of downloading, GMIC went 'off' line for a few minutes. Needed Rick to put things right !!!

This is the Infantry bandolier for the British Lee Metford rifle - Boer War period. (1899-1902). The ammo. was .303 and each compartment held five rounds - with the points projection through holes in the bottom. There were 8 compartments - i.e. 40 rounds. The bandolier could be worn crosswise round one shoulder, or, around the waist. There were other patterns of cross belts - the cavalry wore a quite different type - I don't have one now and perhaps someone could show them ? The overall length was 38 inches (97cm)

I think I recall that there was a short-lived WEBBING bandolier issued. The story that I remember was that they were prone to stretching - possibly meant to be used oncwe but in fact got refilled? - and that Boer commandos following British columns could glean the cartridges which slipped out of the British bandoliers.

Has anyone else heard such a tale, or are all those cane toads I licked in my youth for a cheap high coming back to muddle my middle-aged brain?

Peter

According to this site: "Case Studies in Environmental Medecine" (http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/arsenic/physiologic_effects.html), arsenic, particularly when ingested, causes renal (kidney) failure as one of its symptoms. Didn't read far enough to find out whether that is in fact the main symptom of arsenic poisoning or not. BTW, aside from green wallpaper/paint with arsenic in it, Napoleon suffered chronic stomach problems, one 19th century cure for which were various nostrums with arsenic salts in them.

So, no malevolent conspiracy by Nappie's jailers, just plain old bad medecine. Boring boring boring!

Peter

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090701/tuk-qu...al-dba1618.html

If you click on the YouTube next the news story, you'll be able to see the new medal. Clearly modeled on the Mothers' Crosses and very attractive, IMHO, unlike some of the other modern stuff produced by various nations. Rule Britannia!

Peter

Some more info. (web-dresses after each section)

QUEEN'S SOUTH AFRICA MEDAL

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_c...0th_hussars.htm

*The vast majority receiving this 4 clasp combination Orange Free State, Transvaal, South Africa 1901 & 1902.

Battle Honour: South Africa 1901-02

Here are some army service numbers and corresponding joining dates for the 20th Hussars,

1897 joined on 4th February 1881...

4315 joined on 7th December 1898

4372 joined on 23rd February 1899

4677 joined on 8th October 1901...

4746 joined on 7th October 1902

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/200...th-hussars.html

20th Hussars

Click here for a list of recipients of the QSA.

[http://www.angloboerwar.com/units%20imperial/20th_hussars_qsa.htm]

Includes ?Nagington, 4507 Private S. QSA (4 bar medal )

The regiment sailed from Bombay, and arrived at Durban in December 1901.? Along with the 3rd Hussars they were brigaded under Colonel Nixon, and took part in the work in the extreme northeast of the Orange River Colony during the final drives.

Both regiments of Colonel Nixon's brigade were frequently engaged with the enemy, and their work has been very briefly referred to under the 3rd Hussars.

One non-commissioned officer gained mention in despatches by Lord Kitchener during the war, and in his final despatch he mentioned 4 officers and 4 non-commissioned officers.? One officer and 1 man who had been attached to other regiments were mentioned in Lord Roberts' despatch of 4th September 1901.

Peter

Some more info. (web-dresses after each section)

QUEEN'S SOUTH AFRICA MEDAL

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_c...0th_hussars.htm

*The vast majority receiving this 4 clasp combination Orange Free State, Transvaal, South Africa 1901 & 1902.

Battle Honour: South Africa 1901-02

Here are some army service numbers and corresponding joining dates for the 20th Hussars,

1897 joined on 4th February 1881...

4315 joined on 7th December 1898

4372 joined on 23rd February 1899

4677 joined on 8th October 1901...

4746 joined on 7th October 1902

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/200...th-hussars.html

20th Hussars

Click here for a list of recipients of the QSA.

[http://www.angloboerwar.com/units%20imperial/20th_hussars_qsa.htm]

Includes ?Nagington, 4507 Private S. QSA (4 bar medal )

The regiment sailed from Bombay, and arrived at Durban in December 1901.? Along with the 3rd Hussars they were brigaded under Colonel Nixon, and took part in the work in the extreme northeast of the Orange River Colony during the final drives.

Both regiments of Colonel Nixon's brigade were frequently engaged with the enemy, and their work has been very briefly referred to under the 3rd Hussars.

One non-commissioned officer gained mention in despatches by Lord Kitchener during the war, and in his final despatch he mentioned 4 officers and 4 non-commissioned officers.? One officer and 1 man who had been attached to other regiments were mentioned in Lord Roberts' despatch of 4th September 1901.

Peter

Tidy

Here's the potted wisdom on the 20th in S.A.

The Boer War

The 20th remained in England until 1896, being garrisoned successively at Woolwich, Norwich, Aldershot and Colchester, and then returned to India where they served uneventfully for the next six years, being stationed throughout this time at Mhow, until they were sent to South Africa to take part in the closing stages of the Boer War. Here they took part in Kitchener's operations against the Boer "commandos" of Transvaal and Orange Free State, participating in the fighting of the early months of 1902.

The 20th was at Heilbron in the Orange Free State when peace was declared in May, 1902. Owing to their late arrival in the theatre of operations their casualties were light in the extreme; just eight other ranks lost.

Here are most if not all the London Gazette entries for the 20th: they may only have lost 8 ORs, but they also lost a Colonel, who got a DSO for his work (commanding the 6th Infantry Brigade. Check the Gazette for May 7th - it describes whtaver action it was that saw him killed so there may be more info. on the regiment.

London Gazette, 4 January 1901

20th Hussars, Corporal Arthur Little, from the Imperial Yeomanry (recommended by the Field-

Marshal Commanding-in-chief, South Africa), to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 5th January, 1901.

London Gazette, 19 February 1901

Major (local Lieutenant-Colonel) G. A. Cookson, Indian Staff Corps, to be graded as an Assistant Adjutant-General, and to retain the local rank of Lieutenant-Colonel whilst commanding the 6th Corps of Mounted Infantry, vice Major (local Lieutenant-Colonel) N. Legge, D.S.O., 20th Hussars, killed in action. Dated 14th December, 1900.

London Gazette, 7 May 1901

Lieuleuant-Colonel N. Legge (20th Hussars), a valuable leader of mounted troops, I regret to say, fell early in this action.

London Gazette, 27 September, 1901

20th Hussars.

To be a Companion of the Order of the Bath. Major Norton Legge, D.S.O. (since killed in action).

Finally, you can write to the National Archives and get a copy of great granfer's service records. Google "National Archives + service records + 1900-1913" and you can get the "WO" number you'll need to request specific service records. Good luck!

Peter