peter monahan

"loyal, hard working, phlegmatic and very suspicious of 'foreigners', 'foreign' being defined as 'from further than 5 miles away, from any city, or having arrived in England after 1066."

Characteritics to this day of old line New Englanders.

One of Kipling's finest examples of this sort is in a longish story about a young American couple (rich) who rent and then buy an empty estate in rural Sussex. It turns out they have accidently re-acquired the home of an emigrant ancestor of his. The housekeeper, without a word to them, has written to New England, where they're from - they figure she doen't know how to read - and gets the staunch villigers in Maine to verify their story. So they are "our kind". On Sunday of the week they buy it they are met at the village church door by the verger and escorted to the 'family' pew and afterwards the local nobs, who have never addressed them before, invite them to lunch because "You're one of us.", unlike the stinking rich 'merchant' down the road, who's lived there 20 years and has never been spoken to by anyone! And as they leave church the village lines up to curtsy and tug their forelocks to the new master and his mistress (missus). Very chauvinist, very Kipling, very very pre-WWI British!

A colleague at school is "from Prince Edward Island": not born there, never lived there but has parents and grandparents who did. So she's an Islander. Her nearest neighbour down there (and in Ontario too) has lived there 30+ years but she , and her kids, are "from aways", which really frosts her butt.

Anybody who talks about friendliness in small towns has never ever lived in one! Sure, we're polite to most everybody and even helpful, but if you don't know who a man's granfer was you can't know what kind of man he is and so don't trust him with local gossip or sordid secrets. Gotta love it :cheers:

Hello,

This is a very rare enlistment document for the army of Texas dated 1837. The volunteer was born in Ireland and signed for the duration of the war with Mexico. The Texas army consisted of around 1500 soldiers.

thanks,

barry

Two vaguely related tidbits:

James Thom, an historian and writer from Indiana has written a very decent novel on the San Patricios called "Saint Patrick's Battalion" and illustrated with his own drawings. Quite a good read! and published in 2006-07, so still easily available.

Many years ago my wife and I were given a tour of bits of downtown London by a chap I knew and one of the more fascinating stops was in an alley/entrance way to a block of flats. The wll bears a plaque, "not even the taxi drivers know about' my friend claimed, commemorating "The site of the Legation of the Republic of Texas to the Court of St. James" and the dates - 3 or 4 years - which I can't recall. Really cool!

Peter

Another interesting, ca 1915 Bulgarian dress bayonet. Some say for Sergeants, some - for Generals. Probably the second.

Wouldn't a general wear a sword as opposed to a bayonet?

Peter

I do hope Kipling REPLACED those accumulated markers rather than just pulled them up....

Rick

I should think he probably did. All those crosses will have been replaced by CWGC stones, so recognizable from all the Allied cemeteries in Europe.

Kipling was in fact one of the persons instrumental in the formation of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which is now of course responsible for the maintenance of graves of soldiers from Commonwealth countries killed in WWI, WWII, Korea, and many conflicts.

Kipling's efforts, and the 3 volume History of the Irish Guards he wrote were a memorial to his son Jack, lost on the Western Front while serving with the Guards.

And, truth being stranger than fiction, Jack Kipling was found not many years ago. He had apparently taken shelter from shelling in the cellar of a wrecked house, where his body was buried in 1917(?) and discovered by workmen on a building project within the last decade.. The ID was made based on the uniform and rank and a half-written letter in a monogrammed cigarette case.

Sadly, Kipling lost an infant daughter as well, to illness, during the 2-3 years when he lived in America. It was after that he moved to Sussex and wrote many stories of rural England - including the Puck of Pook's Hill tales. His stories from that period (1890's) focused on the sturdy English yeomen, loyal, hard working, phlegmatic and very suspicious of 'foreigners', 'foreign' being defined as 'from further than 5 miles away, from any city, or having arrived in England after 1066.

А parade helmet of army dragoon regiment introdused after Russo-Japan War.

But as far as I can see it is a faked one.

Sergey

That was my feeling too - and I know nothing about Russian stuff! The headliners, as I mentioned to Pavel, are far too clean - look brand spanking new, in fact. That plus rarity value makes an old cynic like me very very wary. Glad I'm not the only one.

Peter

Pavel

The helmets are those of the Russian Imperial Guard. There is a little info. at this site: http://www.mannerheim.fi/05_s_ura/e_kaarti.htm

Having said that, and from what little I can see of them in the small photos, they seem to be in "as new" condition, which is odd for items which must be 100 years old at the very least. I notice, for example, what looks like the liner: white canvas or linen. It looks as if it has never been in contact with human hair: no oil, no sweat, no marks at all. Very strange for an antique.

As to value, couldn't begin to say but if authentic and capable of being proved so, LOTS of money.

My two cents worth.

Peter

Yes, the U.S.S. CONSTITUTION is the oldest wooden (sailing) warship still in commission,afloat AND sailing. Friends of mine form part of the "crew", portraying U.S. Marines of the 1812-1815 period. Apparently it gets interesting when they enter ab active US Navy yard with guns and black powder and meet a gate guy who hasn't read all the memos before starting duty! And the don't just sail her out for a turn around, though I don't think she leaves Boston Harbour: some of my friends have actually fired a 32 pounder "Long Tom" from her deck. Way cool!

And Mr. Allan is right too: HMS VICTORY, Nelson's flagship, is still in commission and still afloat but hasn't left her moorings in decades. So, each unique in her own way.

Also, if this were to be identified to a Sirdar, it could have been used by an Egyptian official as well. When I was delving into Egyptian court uniforms about a week ago (they're on of the few nations I don't have any references for!) I dug up a few pictures of old Egyptian officials, I'll look around for fly whisks and report any findings.

~TS

Now there's a man with esoteric interests! Good on ya, mate! Do let us know if you find anything, please.

Peter

If you google "Zulu" and get modern images of "ethnic dress" some of the women are wearing what must amount to several stone weight worth of beads! Literally covered from knee to thigh, up both arms and around the body as well. Makes the old story about the Dutch buying Manhattan for beads a little more credible.

Same thing happens here with Native American dance troupes, who go all out to 'out-wow' each other with more, bigger and shinier costumes. sadly, again, many of these younger people have probably not seen the originals from which their own costumes have evolved which are, to my eyes, far more attractive. But, time marches on. So far I haven't seen any beadwork with iPods worked into the design, but it's only a matter of time. I recall buying a traditional cotton blanket from a Fulani craftsman in Nigeria in 1980 and only years later figuring out that the 'runic' looking designs woven into the border were the letters representing the names of the major political parties in the 1980 elections: "PRP" for the People's Redemption Party and so on! And this from a man who was almost certainly illiterate. Weird world we live in.

Peter

duplicate post

Another model

Here's a model of a very similar vehicle - seems to be based on a Panther chassis

There is one nice photo at: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...itenansicht.jpg

pic 3 may " german bergepanther "

big shove atthe rear

This vehicle has been converted to a "tank recovery" vehicle - used to tow disabled tanks off the battlefield for repair. I believe that the shovel would be lowered into the ground to anchor the tank before it tried to pull another tank out of mud, so that the recovery vehicle wouldn't be pulled backwards when the cable tightened. The small 'mast' sticking up is part of the towing apparatus, I think.

Hope this helps.

Peter

Assuming these are Boer War finds, which the shrapnel shell makes pretty much a certainty, then the bullets will be either Lee Enfield (if British) or some variant of Mauser (if Boer), though the latter is not a sure thing, as obviously Boer commandos (militia) used whatever rifles were around the farm when they left for war.

There should be markings on the cartridge casing as well, round the base in a circle, which might tell you at least nationality if legible.

Fascinating find. Do you know where they were picked up?

Peter

Mervyn & Helen

Fantastic stuff! I have read of the head rings before and that resin or wax was used to harden and hold together but I'd never heard of the gruesome custom of putting bounites on them. Sadly, it doesn't surprise me. Many people 'know' about the Native American custom of sca;ping dead foes but most don't know that the custom was in fact restricted to a small number of tribes/cultures until the Europeans arrived and began paying for scalps - the french for British scalps and vice versa. In fact I recall reading that a major reason for Texas finally lifting the bounty on Apache scalps, well after the American Civil War, was to do with the fact that scalps from peaceful Mexican farmers were far easier to collect and could not be readily distinguisehed from the hair of 'good Indians'. (General Phil Sheridan, who helped 'pacify' the American West famously remarked that "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

Mervyn, I have to call you on one thing. The idea of boot hobs being pried off for use as ornaments is a charming one but not, I fear very likely. One of my odder pastimes is hobnailing boots for fellow military re-enactors. Hobs properly installed actually peen over into a 'J" or fishhook shape most of the time and are the blazes to pull out, even using cobblers pinchers built for the job.

Also, the metal ornaments on the drinking/powder horn are not hobnails, which are square (pyramidal, not hemispherical or conical) by mid-nineteenth century and have grooves in all four faces. The metal on the horn look to be the brass tacks sold for ornament and in great numbers by the British - many many American native weapons and artifacts display decorative patterns picked out in tacks and I suspect they were used in Africa as well. They are still around as "furniture nails".

Wonderful information. Thanks to both of you for sharing the photos and your knowledge.

Peter

Palencia

I know nothing about Turkish orders but it strikes me that the ends of the two hooks on your piece are very rough - just the way they would have been after wire cutters were used. Or is that just the photo.? Anyway, it seems odd to me that on a fancy enameled piece the maker wouldn't have bothered to round off and file smooth the points.

Just my two cents worth

Peter

... I was told that it was normal practice for a ceremonial fly whisk to be carried as a status symbol. In East Africa, Chiefs still do carry one. Certainly, I was assured that this has the military connection. However, we all know how things can take on exaggerated status - so prove me wrong ???

Sorry - that sounds rude and it wasn't meant to be - I can only say that I can't prove it either way.

Mervyn

Can't prove you wrong, nor do I wish to. Being told that it was a) military and b) particular to a certain rank are certainly reasons to think and say so. I'm cursed [or blessed] with my father's philosophical dictums - he is a D. Phil. - and many years arguing with adolescents. I always fall back on the scientific dictum that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

While the notion that this is military fly whisk is hardly "extraordinary" in any sense, I jumped at and on the notion that you had no reason not to think... as opposed to having reasons X and Y to believe it was... . My apologies.

BTW, fly whisks are also still carried as emblems of authority in West Africa - specifically, in northern Nigeria. Or were 20+ years ago when I was there for a while.

Please keep posting treasures from your seemingly bottomless treasure chest!

Peter

Because it is marked with "A.M." (Air Ministry), it is military and must post-date the creation of that Ministry in January, 1918. If I had to bet, I would say 1920's-1930's.

Good eye, Harrier! :cheers:

My only contribution is to wonder whether the fact that the thing is named [identified] means it's military. I would think that in the civilian world the assumption would be that you'd know what it was before you bought it and only matelots and squaddies had to have everything named and labelled: "Shoe, leather, feet for the covering of". :rolleyes:

Peter , do you belong to a black powder club, or, own one to fire privately?

Mervyn

I re-enact the War of 1812-14 -Britain & Canada vs the US - a minor offshoot of the Napoleonic conflicts in Europe. I regularly fire a modern repro. of a Bess with powder only and have shot with ball a few times. Not something I'd try with a period weapon! I love my clumsy little fingers right where they are.

Helen

You mention a 'repeated pattern' on the butt stock. This may be a clue as to where the piece was made. A friend once owned a 'hill made' copy of a Martini-Henry carbine, made in Peshawar bazaar or up in the Khyber country. Every part was numbered but no two numbers the same - 366, 363, 663, 666, etc - as the maker apparently only had two number stamps. Then, for the look of the thing or to add to the magic, he had stamped circular and floral patterns on the wood work, using the '3' stamp repeatedly. So, the 'wall gun' could be a local (ie Asian) copy too. more photos eagerly awaited.

Peter

Peter , do you belong to a black powder club, or, own one to fire privately?

Mervyn

I re-enact the War of 1812-14, a minor North American offshoot of the Napoleonic conflict. So I regularly fired Modern repro. of a Bess with powder only but have shot ball ammunition as well. Not too bad a kick as long as you're expecting it.

Helen

The repeated stamp - I believe you said on the butt? - may be a clue as to where this piece was made. A friend once owned a "hill made" copy of a Martini Henry carbine. The gunsmith - Peshawur bazaar or somewhere in Afgfhanistan - had faithfully copied the British original, including serial numbers opn all the pieces. However he apparently only had two number stamps - a '3' and a '6' - so after numbering the pieces, each with a different combination of those two digits [363, 663, 366 etc] he had stamped litlle decorative designs into the stock using the numbers as well.

Peter

"I have no reason not to believe that it was part of the regalia for a Sirdar"

A really lovely piece indeed but, at the risk of sounding like a smart a**, I have to echo Thomas: what evidence is there to suggest that it IS a rank badge/token?

Peter

I agree with Mervyn: a 'rampart gun' rather than a whaler. harpoon guns had a far larger bore in my admittedly meager experience, to hold the butt of the Harpoon. Such things were used on boats, in small forts and, as suggested even as mobile "artillery" .69 calibre seems huge to modern shooters but I regularly fire a .75 calibre "Brown Bess" musket without discomfort or difficulty. Loaded with ball it has about the same kick as a twelve bore shotgun - nothing to alarm a camel, I wouldn't think.

Looking at the style of the piece I'd also say it was made in Europe, not Asia or the Middle East. There were hundreds of small arms makers in the nineteenth century, some of whom worked almost exclusively in the export trade, making "Dane guns", for example [smooth bore muskets for the West Africa trade, first flintlock and eventually percussion].

More shots, especially of the lock plate and breech, might help pin down the maker.

My tuppence worth!

Peter

I've just done some quick digging myself re the mutiny question and found a fascinating site: a book review of a book entitled "MUTINY". Here is some of the review:

The official preference for deploy the B.W.I.R. as labour battalions, rather than front-line troops, and the rising tide of discriminatory treatment could characterise the history of the regiment, in the words of Lieutenant-Colonel Charles Wood-Hill, as a "heartbreaking tale of humiliation and disillusion." One of the B.W.I.R.'s pivotal advocates, whose lobbying contributed to the eventual front-line deployment in Palestine and Jordan, Wood-Hill was a long-serving officer of the West India Regiment6 before the war. He was appointed commanding officer of the first battalion B.W.I.R. and documented the regiments tribulations in a brief sketch circulated to the War Office, Colonial Office and West India Committee. Mutiny does not address the more ambiguous, reactionary side of Wood-Hill's character which resulted in his striking the men under his command (Cipriani 1940). It was an obsession with military honour and discipline, less a desire to redress racial discrimination, which drove his championing of the B.W.I.R. As he made clear in a letter to the West India Committee after the war, Wood Hill firmly hoped military discipline had made Jamaicans immune to political radicalisation.7

This was indeed a vain hope, for while West Indian soldiers were prepared to accept authority and endure hardship in exchange for post-war recognition, they were not prepared to suffer indignity and discrimination. On 6 December 1918, shortly after the Armistice, Lieutenant-Colonel Willis, commander of the ninth battalion B.W.I.R., based in the port of Taranto, Italy and notorious for his harsh approach to discipline, was surrounded by angry soldiers when he ordered them to clean latrines used by Italian labourers. The men dispersed quietly, but the following day, the ninth and tenth battalions refused to work. The men were disarmed, but not before unrest had spread to other battalions. War Office secret telegrams reveal a battalion of white troops with a machine company were requested to forestall any further unrest among the West Indies battalions.

On 17 December, 60 West Indian sergeants met to form the Caribbean League, which although short-lived due to internal divisions centred around island identities, marked a pivotal moment in the emergence of nationalist movements in the Anglophone Caribbean. Mutiny reports the memorable and oft-cited slogan emanating from a subsequent meeting of the League, "that the black man should have freedom and govern himself in the West Indies and that force must be used, and if necessary bloodshed to attain that object." These are the words that struck fear [End Page 228] into the Imperial establishment, and perhaps no wonder so shortly after the Soviet Revolution. But it is also important to recall the more modest aim, "the Promotion of all matters conducive to the General Welfare of the islands constituting the British West Indies and the British Territories adjacent thereto."8 This was a distinctly social democratic agenda, but one which British Imperialism and the West Indian plantocracy would find impossible to meet in the post-war economic crisis. Court martials of the alleged mutineers were held before the New Year with the apparent ringleader, Private Arthur Sanches receiving a death sentence commuted to twenty years imprisonment.9

The attitude of the British military hardened in the wake of the mutiny at Taranto. Culminating in the "Reign of Terror" (Cipriani 1940) instituted when the base commandant at Taranto was replaced by the South African, Brigadier General Carey Barnard. Eugent Clarke recalled how the men were barred from recreational facilities, "You couldn't even go to the gate, let alone into town ? he was a rough man." In general, the attitude of the West Indians' erstwhile white comrades changed. Gershom Browne reported how "they didn't seem to want any attachment with us ? we had always seemed to get on good together in Egypt." An anonymous black sergeant complained to the Colonial Office that the men were treated "neither as Christians nor as British citizens, but as West Indian niggers."

The military and colonial authorities were anxious the B.W.I.R. should be demobilised as rapidly as possible and most of the regiment "never saw Blighty," nor attended victory parades. On their return home, the authorities dispersed the veterans to their parishes so quickly that, as Eugent Clarke remembers, "they never gave us a welcome."

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/caribbean_studies/v036/36.1.smith.html

Also, a site for the "West Indian Returned Servicemen's Assoc.":

http://westindiaregiment.org/history.html

Thanks to you both for having a look. It's a great pity that service records to the BWIR were destroyed by the Luftwaffe.

I don't think this unit is very collectable but I find it interesting that blokes from the West Indies got up and volunteered for a war so far away from their home. I can only imagine they must have felt a strong allegiance to the Empire.

Tony

I have to agree - patriotism is a strange thing by times. In fact, I'm surprised that the Regiment lasted as long as it did, given that in it's earliest form it was composed largely of slaves who were 'bought into' service by the British. Nevertheless, the fought valiantly in many of the colonial scraps, especially in West Africa, and had, as a unit, nothing to be ashamed of.

Now, what was the reference to "mutiny" about?

Peter