peter monahan

Helen, you are a treasure....

I have found several identification errors in these old catalogs so Nigeria is probably correct. I would think this would help stabilize the spear if it were thrown much as feathers do for an arrow.

Thanks to all for your help.

Regards

Brian

Wonderful, though it leaves me going "D'oh!", as I actually own a couple Tuareg items including a knife with a wide spatulate end on the sheath, though the blade is a simple poiniard shape.

I met many Fulani while in Nigeria, though none whom I recall carrying spears. They, like the Masai of east Africa, are nomadic herdsmen, though these days the wives and 'piccins' (kids) go ahead by taxi as the men and boys and cows follow the rains and the new grass up and down the west coast of Africa. Actually, up and down is a misnomer. Toward and away from the damper coast, which in Nigeria happened to be north and south.

The Tuareg, back then (1978-80) were in the 5th or 6th year of a 7 year drought in the Sahara and had come south when the camels died to look for a living. However, as the males don't do any manual labour - there's a hereditary slave caste for that - they were somewhat limited as to employment prospects. To proud to beg, they usually worked as watchmen and, believe me, NOBODY robbed a compound guarded by Tuareg. They all carried (not wore, carried) either swords or whips, the latter made from a yard of 3/4" stell cable tipped with a lead ball the size of a gold ball and covered in leather. The Tuareg equivalent of the policeman's "non-lethal force'. You'd just WISH you were dead! Thay also held hands a lot - male and male - but, oddly, no one ever hassled them about it!

My fondest memory of Tuareg is sitting outside a building in Nigeria (they were on duty) sipping mint tea and listening to the Voice of America, which broadcast in "Special English" - speaking veeeery slooowlyyy for non-native ears. "Tonights toopiiic is treee faaarmiiing in Orrreeeggooon." Too funny!

Enough natter! Glad you've pinned down the spear, Brian . Veeerrryyy niiiicceee!

BUSBY for the Royal Artillery Band. Queen's Crown and still in use. I am told they are the only RA unit still wearing it - although King's Troop certainly does ??

Yes, the King's Troop still do too but, to be a tiny bit pedantic, aren't they Royal HORSE Artillery? And Do they not wear a red bag rather than the blue? I actually put on a RHA tunic and busby for a costume party [30 years ago, before my chest fell 18 inches to my waistline] and that's my recollection.

Peter

Museum curators - one of whom I aspire to be some day - would scream in horror :speechless1: at the notion of ANY chemical treatment, no matter what the package says about "harmless" to silk, wood, babies, etc.

Typically, new acquisitions of cloth, leather or wood received by a museum are placed in a freezer for anything up to 3 weeks. I'd say a minimum 7 days, not 72 hours, just to be safe. Then winkle out any dead bugs, eggs, larvae and 'frass' (bug s**t to the non-entymologists ) visible - using a good magnifier helps. Finally, store in a place where they won't get exposed to more wildlife. Bugs is what museum people have nightmares about!

Good luck.

Peter

Thanks Gordon,

Can you let me know what it says on page 129? I am always looking for good reference books but they are not always easy to come by. Like I said, I think it is an original polizei shell and liner with post-war decals, so if you have any light to shed anything is appreciated. Hopefully someone knowledgeable in these helmets will stumble upon this thread. I can still return it so any and all help would be appreciated.

Pat

Pat

I can't vouch for their expertise - I know zero about SS stuff, but others may wish to comment - but there is "the other site", which is specifically for Wehrmacht and SS gear. Have you considered posting yr query there? [Wermacht-Awards.com]

Peter

Brian

I've seen one like it in a book and I'm certain it's African but d****ed if I can recall from where exactly. I'll look for the book or have the missus slap the back of my head to help me remember!.

Peter

"What do you mean counterfeiting? You guys don't make three dollar bills!" - punch line to an old cartoon. I also recall, many eons ago, when Canada first issued the "coloured" (read "colourful") bills, the $20.00 note being the first. Some wag spent a half day on the street trying to get people, including an on-duty PC, to accept one, but with no luck. Stupidity cuts both ways. :rolleyes:

As to hanging, bobbing 'bit's and so on, I have a clear (though still possibly incorrect) memory of a medieval case which popped up in a course on the history of English crime and criminals. The wife of the house was issuing false coin. was in fact notorious for it, but when the law showed up she simply pointed them to her husband. Poor weak females were deemed incapable of such sophisticated crimes back then. Couldn't vote either. The punishment for debasing the king's coinage back then? Having molten lead poured into your ears. Ouch! :speechless1:

If there are minatures clearly attributable to pre-1838, then they must go back almost as far as medals themselves, as the service medal (as opposed to wearable honours and awards) don't go back too much further than that. There are, apparently, Elizabethan naval medals from c1650 but the Waterloo Medal was Britain's first "campaign medal". That is to say, the first British medal expressly made for issue to ALL the participants of a battle or campaign.

Not strictly relevant, perhaps, but the use of minatures may have been spurred at least in part by the fact that early campaign medals were typically sewndirectly to the owner's tunic. This would have been awkward for officers who owned more than one tunic and chose not to buy up the medals of others so as to have one per uniform. Which later practice, BTW, is the explanation for at least some name erased medals. I read, years ago, the details of court martial charge against a time-expired British private in the Victorian period (1870ish?) who sold his gong, only to have it "found" on the uniform of a serving NCO. Interestingly, the second owner does not appear to have been charged.

My tuppence worth!

Peter

Nice work, gentlemen!

Poor bugger! Joined the Army as a 'causal labourer' (read 'unemployed' or 'semi-employed'), had a fairly ordinary wartime career and got discharged 'unfit' as a result of being gassed. I wonder if he 'quit fatigues' because he couldn't breath well enough and got gigged by an unsympathetic NCO.

I also wonder how he made out as a civilian with no particular skills and a half a set of lungs! Perhaps he applied for the gongs in 1920 and wore the War Badge in an attempt to improve his odds of getting a job. I know that's what I'd have done! No great wonder that socialism made such strides in the UK after the war!

I'd agree with the notion that the Star (mullet, to get technical) is either a "charge" on a coat of arms or a regimental symbol. What the heralds call "differences" or "cadency marks", are meant to go onto (superimposed) a complete coat of arms, so that a group of individuals wearing otherwise identicals arms could be distinguished. In other words, Dad wore the full coat and so did the sons, Number 1 son with a "label", Number 2 a crescent moon, Number 3 a mullet and so on. I believe there are 8 differences recorded, at least in theory. Wearing or bearing simply the label didn't mean anything in particular, as the various symbols appeared, singly or in groups, on various coats of arms

As stand-alones, the star, crescent moon and so on have different meanings related to the people who wore them. Keep in mind too that much of the lore of British heraldry was improved on by those inveterate inventors the Victorians. People who wore arming coats over their armour devised various ways to identify themselves to friends and foes in battle but the complex system with hard and fast rules reached its epogee long after close helms and plate armour had died out - much like the way in which the Victorians tidied up clan tartans during their love affair with all things Scottish!

Like so many other things, coats of arms were raely discussed and diseccted by those who used them, they just 'were' so, sadly, one cannot deduce too much definitively from mullets, martlets, labels or unicorns.

Peter

Amazing detail, really impressive paint jobs. How long on average to produce a single figure?

Yes, lovely lovely work! You have great talent in this field. I too am interested in the time investment. Curiosity, not any intention to copy yr work - I know my limits.

Peter

Will - welcome back. I don't think the calender was issue - just added as another memento. Find anything interesting on your travels ?

Mervyn

And speaking of "other memontoes", the Canadian War Museum had (still has, I suppose) not only a chocalate tin but a wool scarf allegedly knitted by Vickie herself and sent out with the Christmas treats to a Canadian serving in South Africa. At least, that's what I think I remember from a visit many eons ago when I still had all my teeth, all my hair and most of my mind. Has anyone else heard of/seen such things?

Peter

The London Gazette is nopw available on line. The search engine is, according to those who use it a lot for WWI stuff, not 100% reliable, but I've found it very useful and all the despatches from the 1812-14 War that I've seen list at least officer casualties by name. Bracket the date of the battle - say Jan 30 - August 30 1815 and look for "Shaw" + "$th". He may pop up in the body of the despatch - the famous "Mentioned in Despatches" or in one of the appendices to the relevant despatch. Good luck!

Peter

The term "copper" for a police officer is alleged by some to derive from copper badges or buttons that early officers wore on their uniforms, others claim that the word refers to "Constables on Patrol", or "Constabulary of Police", but to me these sound rather contrived.

Any other suggested origins for "cop"?

The complete Oxford English Dictionary does not offer an etymology for 'cop', simply that it is slang. However there exist in many parts of the English speaking world a minor industry in "folk" [ie false] etymologies, many of them revolving around acronyms. However, since acronyms depend for their meaning on literacy in both the writer and the reader they are mainly a 20th century phenomenon and any purporting to come from an earlier time - "golf", "posh" and "f.u.c.k." come to mind - should be regarded with grave suspicion!

And, in this case, the descent from Latin through French and Dutch, not only matches the origins of many English words but makes perfect sense as well. Remember Occam's razor: barring contrary evidence, the simplest explanation is the one most likley to be true!

My tuppence worth

Peter

Well done, Michael!

The most militant of my ancestors was, apparently, a Private in the 21st Battaslion, CEF who joined in 1916, saw six months service in the trenchs in 1918 and was invalided out to England (and late getting back to Canada) with Pleurisy. "Cause of Ilness" in his records reads simply "trenches". I'm envious of your distinguisehd forebear!

Peter

Helen and Mervyn

Lovely pieces undeed! However, I have to disagree with the description of #3 as 'shooting stick' type handle. First, it looks to be far too small for any normal human buttocks - to me at least, scale being a bit tricky. Second, the style, especially the asymmetric shape, is very reminiscent of some South Asian blades, the Malayan 'kris' for one. Might it have been collected there for or by the General?

Interesting side note, BTW, in an age when weapons are less and less acceptable in private hands: a friend who works in the film and televison business has a sword stick in his shop, one he made, and tells me that Canadian law has recently changed to make their possession legal, though of course carrying one is still a crime.

Until recently any conealed blades were classed as "prohibited weapons" here, much like fully automatic guns. That is, there was no licence or legal way to own one, with a tiny number of exceptions most of which involved the authorities simply ignoring them if they were judges to be in safe hands and for a good reason (museum displays, for e.g.) I recall, in fact, getting off a Dutch charter years ago at Toronto Airport behind a chap who'd brought one back from Europe somewhere and watching the Customs chap snap the blade right off at the hilt, give the handle back to the owner and tell him he should consider himself lucky not to be charged!

Letters such as this one would have been copied by a secretary/staff and then sent to various newspapers at the time for printing.

Very nice, Bear! Where do you find all these things?

Peter

posted this on the British Badge forum and got this reponse:

An example (cap badge only) is listed in a Bosleys postal catalogue (Nov 1999) Lot nos 506 (didn't sell). It is listed as:

Andy

Very nice. Glad I was wrong about it! They must be fairly scarce - small original issue and not as 'sexy' as some of the iother units so perhaps not kept as carefully.

Peter

I am not sure whether everybody is familiar with the Internet Archive at www.archive.org

Besides being an archive of website it includes other media as well. This includes a wealth of information including the Hart's Annual Army list free for download. I have collected the available volumes here.

Steen

First rate! I use the Internet Archive myself for early 19th century sources but hadn't thought of looking for Hart's there! Thanks for the tip.

Peter

I can only echoe others in saying "Fantastic!" Clearly a labour of love.

Awesome collection, Kjell!

And I must confess - at risk of starting a series of semi-political posts - one of my first thoughts was "Gee, he must live in the US." because I wasn't aware on anywhere in Europe where position of a Machine Gun was legal! And you had two? Wow!

Peter

(from Canada, where we can't own machine guns either)

I know NOTHING about British cap badges, but the freakish design on this one caught my eye, and in going through a large pile of books I have inherited, I found this one from a book published in August 1953:

This suggests the "Teletubby Devil" bit is "2nd Army Group" whatever and wherever THAT was. Hope that is a good clue.

On the other hand, the British telephone arm of the Postal Service is or was, I believe, called "British Telecom", which would explain the word and the lightning bolts.

My vote is for either somebody's 'dress up' hat or an attempt by a flea market merchant to sell two items which aren't related but might, to the untrained eye appear so.

Peter

My favourite is the Duke of Wellington after reviewing a group of his own men in the Peninsular War when he said "I do not know what these men will do to the enemy but by God sir they frighten me".

Also by "Old Nosey": "The scum of the earth, enlisted for drink and officered by gentlemen."

And, somewhat less favourite, in response to be twitted about having been born in Ireland: "Not everything that comes out of a stable is a horse."

No, ya pompous ould spalpeen, some av it is horse s**t! (Sorry, my Fenian side peeking through there. )

Alex thats an interesting point. I wonder just how many `dodgey` pound coins get handed in each year. Does the government offer any sort of compensation, if so this would be a good way to launder them What about bank notes surely if your a shop keeper & end up with a ?50 or the like the Bank of England will, re emburse you?

I believe that the law on counterfeits is probably the same in most jurisdictions: you MUST by law turn in (suspected) fakes/forgeries and you WILL NOT be compensated/re-imbursed.

If you think this is unfair, and at first blush most of us would, consider this: If the mint or banknote company replced fakes at face value, or even at some fraction of face value, they would soon find themselves in the business of subsidizing the forgers by purchasing forgeries! Perhaps in great numbers, if the forgers were stupid or brazen enough to turn in their own work. And believe me, a glance through any newspaper will suggest that lots of crooks are indeed that brazen and/or that stupid!

Presumably the potential loss caused by accepting duds in the course of commerce is also meant to encourage vigilance among the public. I once received a fake $20 bill (8 pounds ?), from a bank machine as it happens. It was very pale compared to a real one but I didn't notice until the staff in our school cafeteria/canteen pointed it out. Upshot? I replaced it in their till with a real not, turned mine over to the police (like I had a choice!) and did some creative cussing. Never heard back from the police, nor do I ever expect to!

Peter

warning

There is a story, probably apocryphal, of a WWII ephemora collecter who purchased an English 5 pound note, allegedly one of the hundreds of thousands of them forged by the Germans, using skilled engravers imprisomed in one of their concentration camps, with the intent (never implemented) of flooding the UK with them to subvert the economy. The story goes that, having paid a lot more then L5 for the note the collector sent it to the British authorities for "authentication as a forgery" and shortly thereafter received a note saying, in effect, "Yes, it was a fake. We have destroyed it. Thank you for sending it in."

Ah, the good old days!

During the 1880's the Pope declared a "Pilgrimage Year" during which any catholic who travelled to Rome could win a "plenary indulgence", worth time off Purgatory. (For the non-RCs out there, Purgatory is "temporary Hell", where we go to pay off our sins before going on to Heaven.)

Because few North Americans could make the trip to Rome, the diocese of Toronto announced that anyone who walked a route between 4 or 5 RC churches in the city, and prayed at each one presumes, on each of three successive Sundays would be deemed to have done the pilgrimage. According to the Toronto Globe, by the second Sunday the militia had to be called out to protect the walkers from bands of stone-throwing young tugs.

Mind, this was also a city were where it was not unheard of to see "No Irish need apply" signs on businesses and where, until the last couple decades almost every policeman above the rank of Sergeant was a member of the Masons. Not that I think the Masons are anit-RCm I hasten to add, but RCs can't join them and they certainly were am important part of the social networking systme that made sure the "right people" got hired, promoted and so on.

Lets hear it for religious tolerance!

Welcome to the forum JPL.

I have never had this happen but it seems that the rules do indeed change with each interpretation so anything is possible.

Barrie eh? I heading to the 401 Antiques Market this weekend. Have you been there and is it worth my time?

Regards from the sunny south (of Ontario).

Brian

Brian

Sadly, if you're looking for militaria, the 400 Market will almost certainly be a disappointment to you. There are no militaria dealers as such, maybe one numismatist and lots and lots of stalls full of "collectables" - things too new (and ugly) to be classed as antiques. As JPL says, maybe a few medals tucked in among the rubbish, but few and far between.

I'd offer to join you anyway for the company but I'm spending all day Saturday in a seminar on retirement. Probably gonaa be as much fun as watching paint dry, but noisier!

Peter