peter monahan

Many thanks, as many members are not German speakers and the Forum language is in English

OTH, I was able to puzzle out "ein gut qualitat kopie!" with my "ein Bier, bitte" level of German.

Just joshing, Kev.

Hello Gents!

I guess the only thing I can be assured of is no UV damage! Am I in trouble here with the way I'm storing them???

Dieter

This is one of those discussions which ultimately ends up with a choice between "bad choices" and "badder choices", unless one has the luxury of putting the whole collection in Cryogenic storage while the cabinets "cure", a month/year long process. And, ultimately, all objects deteriorate to some degree in ANY environment. Entropy Rules!

That said, however, your solution sounds like a good compromiwe, especially the open bags and the 'air exchange'. I don't expect you'll have to worry about the whole lot turning green or black on you. Do feel free to post shots of your collection too!

Peter

Wim

Rosognoli says that there were 9 "Service Commands", each administering a section of the United States. The 1st Service Command, which administered the New England states had a WHITE DIAMOND with a BLUE Roman numeral I in the center. That's all I see that looks like yr badge. Is yrs blue or khaki in the center? I can't tell from the photo. If blue, then it is definitely 1st Service Command; if not, maybe a variant badge, or something else entirely, but I'd tend to think 1st because another badge that looked so much like it would be confusing!

My two centimes worth.

Peter

I think that soundly qualifies as non-mundane. Royal Order of Dogwashers 3rd class was more what I was fearing.

Would something like this be potentially identifiable?

I also picked up a two place bar with the Ashante Medal and the Order of the Crown of Romania, similar, but not identical in construction. (Folded slightly differently in the back, and the thread is different.) I wonder what the story behind that oddity is.

Apparently the Order of the Crown was handed out to Romania's British allies with some frequency, as I had one for many years to a British offcier of Indian Cavalry who may or may not have been able to find Romania on a map! The chap I got it from had actually known an officer from the same unit, a contemporary of my man. His rather scurulous explanation was that the Romanians "sent them round to the War Ministry every Christmas" where they were issued to officers who had been recommended for but not gotten British decorations. Certainly my man had never served anywhere he could possibly have qualified for a Crown on his merits.

For what it's worth!

Peter

The National Hospital Service Reserve (NHSR) was founded in 1949 and staffed by volunteers from hospital professions, such as doctors, nurses and first aiders. The NHSR was part of the Civil Defence services first established in the 1930s in preparation for air raids that were expected to be part of any future war. After the Second World War, the emphasis shifted to coping with the aftermath of a nuclear attack. The NHSR closed in 1968 when the Civil Defence services were disbanded.

Thanks, Robin! Now that I think on it I seem to recall we Canucks had something similar "back in the day" (as my students would say).

In fact, my youngest got recruited last spring to take part in a mock "civil disaster" exercise. She "only" had "broken bones" but some of her friends "received radiation contamination" and had to go through a shower, with their rescuers, in the parking lot of the local hospital. Not sure what the medicos learned from it, but she got a grab bag of coffee mugs, key chains and such for participating. A necessary eveil in our nasty world, I suppose.

It's all fake, I'm afraid.

Robin

Can you let us in on why (without giving aid and comfort to the fakers)? Not my area or interest but I'm a firm believer that you can never have too many books or too much information.

Peter

NHSR = National Hospital Service Reserve.

Well doen, that man! I was going to GUESS "National Health something " but thought that would be too silly. What would a Healeth reserve unit do? Bedpans to go? Self-taught surgeons? The mind boggles!

Seriously though, good show. Jason, I'd love to see what you find out about the recipient, if you manage to trakc him/her. What are the odds that its a copper or Territorial Force type who just ciouldn't give up wearing uniforms, even in retirement and on Hols?

Pete

Jason

The UK had an Auxiliary Fire Service - initials "AFS" - during WWII. Reference below. No clue about the last set of letters.

"The Auxiliary Fire Service was formed from volunteers at the outbreak of war, to assist the regular fire brigades. The name was changed to The National Fire Service in August 1941 when the regional regular Fire Brigades and the AFS were merged." http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/afs.html

Peter

I am currently doing some research on Captain Andrew H. Bulger of the Royal Newfoundland fencible Infantry. He joined that regiment in 1804 - not yet 15 years old and served until 1816 when it was disbanded.

During his service he earned the Military General Service medal with bars for "Fort Detroit" (16 AUG 1812) and "Chrystler's Farm" (11 NOV 1813) for his services with the regiment at detroit and as a staff officer at Chrysler's Farm. Finally, Bulger was the sole recipient of the bar "3rd and 6th September, 1813" to the Naval General Service Medal for his part in the capture of the American Schonners Tigress and Scorpion.

A number of small boats under the overall command of Liet. Miller Worseley, RN boarded the ships on Lake Huron and took them as prizes. Worseley's own ship, the schooner Nancy had been destroyed by the American ships and a larger consort some days before but the crew had escaped in canoes and small boats. When the sailors reached Michillimackinac, garrisoned by men of the Newfoundland Reg't. they were told that the American schooners were still cruising the area but anchored every night. Miller and Bulger took 50 volunteers in small boats to hunt them, boarded one under fire and used it to sail down on the second and take her. Each action lasted less than 10 minutes and the total casualties were 6 Americans and 1 Briton killed, with several wounded on each side.

My question is, how common would it have been to earn both MGS & NGS? I should think that some Royal Marines may have done so and perhaps others in similar positions. The Newfoundlanders had actually been serving as marines on board Provincial Marine ships during the War of 1812 so in theory a number could have earned both medals but my naval history is too poor for me to judge how common this might have been or how likely that it is to be able to find out. Any thoughts on this would be gratefully received.

Peter Monahan

(also posting this on the Royal Navy forum)

I am currently doing some research on Captain Andrew H. Bulger of the Royal Newfoundland fencible Infantry. He joined that regiment in 1804 - not yet 15 years old and served until 1816 when it was disbanded. During his service he earned the Military General Service medal with bars for "Fort Detroit" (16 AUG 1812) and "Chrystler's Farm" (11 NOV 1813) for his services with the regiment at detroit and as a staff officer at Chrysler's Farm. Finally, Bulger was the sole recipient of the bar "3rd and 6th September, 1813" to the Naval General service Medal for his part in the capture of the American Schonners Tigress and Scorpion.

A number of small boats under the overall command of Liet. Miller Worseley, RN boarded the ships on Lake Huron and took them as prizes. Worseley's own ship, the schooner Nancy had been destroyed by the American ships and a larger consort some days before but the crew had escaped in canoes and small boats. When the sailors reached Michillimackinac, garrisoned by men of the Newfoundland Reg't. they were told that the American schooners were still cruising the area but anchored every night. Miller and Bulger took 50 volunteers (and some Natives, who actually played no part) out to hunt them, boarded one under fire and used it to sail down on the second and take her. Each action lasted less than 10 minutes and the total casualties were 6 Americans and 1 Briton killed, with several wounded on each side.

My question is, how common would it have been to earn both MGS & NGS? I should think that some Royal Marines may have done so and perhaps others in similar positions. The Newfoundlanders had actually been serving as marines on board Provincial Marine ships during the War of 1812 so in theory a number could have earned both medals but my naval history is too poor for me to judge how common this might have been or how likely that it is to be able to find out. Any thoughts on this would be gratefully received.

Peter Monahan

(also posting this on the British Empire forum)

duplicate posting

Thanks Peter

I have a heart breaking situation going on now with a document. I purchased a Napoleon document over a month ago and it hasn't arrived. I sent an email to the dealer but they were on vacation. I have never had a document go missing. Many thanks to the Postal Servive but it was $1850 and I'm worried. I collect documents based on signature, date and rarely content. I think most of the good content are arlready taken, but the date was very special on document. I hope all is well.

thanks,

barry

We'll keep our fingers crossed, Bear. Any tracking information available from the posties to help narrow down where it might be?

Peter

I think this was fixed on something for decoration and its not a badge. Maybe on a memorabilia or something else, pined with nails or something else.

Regards Alex

Maybe meant to go on a wall plaque? Or does the 'wear' referred to earlier imply it was worn on/by a person?

Just a wild-a** guess, but might the reversal of the colour as have been deliberate and meant to pacify persons who might otherwise object to this piece being displayed/worn. I say that because it occurs to me that perhaps it was meant for someone who didn't quite qualify for the O. badge but thought they should have or was in some other way associated with the Observers. Maybe wearing/displaying this 'almost copy' might have satisfied the owner without annoying others who qualified for the 'real thing'. Does that make any sense, or am I reaching?

Peter

Wow! Great doc, Bear. Somehow it seems almost more real than a medal - the names, I guess and so the very very strong connection to identifiable people from another era. Keep posting, please!

Peter

The leather cross-belt with whistle and chain suggests some form of rifle regiment. However, if he was military, you would normally expect a badge in the middle of the cross-belt, so I suspect he is police. The pagri on his helmet certainly suggests an Indian unit, but he could also be a member of one of the Indian-manned units from elsewere in the region. Don't recognise the unusual badge, unfortunately, but it could be related to the five-pointed star in the centre of the Star of India.

I agree, Tim - not regular Indian Army. As you say, the lack of a cross belt plate but also the fact that I am almost certain that no IA unit had a star shaped badge. So, either police - though I think the pugri is a little ornate for that, or one of the Indian Defence Force units. The IDF were the Territorials of India, Burma and other eastern British 'possessions' and many had quite a bit of money - based on the 'day jobs' of the members - and could afford quite elaborate uniforms.

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a comprohensive list of IDF badges readily available. Ed Haynes would know for sure. Any other "context clues"?

Years ago now I ate several times in an Indian restaurant - "The Emoress of India" - run by a gent who had been the first Indian to serve in his squadron of the RAF in India. His squadron mates called him "Gunga Din", he said. I assumed that the squadron was "Indianized" as were some of the Indian cavalry and infantry units: Indian junior officers joined the unit and rose in rank as Brits retired, died or transferred out, so that no British officer was ever of lower rank than an Indian! How nineteenth century, though the scheme occurred in the 1930s and '40s.

This chaps Spitfire was shot down on the first day of the first Indo-Pak War by antiaircraft guns shooting DOWN at him. He was "Tail-End Charlie" as his flight made a pass against a bridge.

He bailed out but bu**ered up his back and wound up flying for the VIP flight, Indian Air Force, flying people like Nehru around. He eventually moved to the UK, flew for Freddie Laker and later came to Canada with mom and English wife and set up a curry restaraunt in southern Ontario. Interesting chap.

Going through uniforms and equipment of the British Army WW1 it seems to be a Pouch for Webley rounds. In the photos of the MPs and other units with pistols they all seem to have had this on the belt.

Best

Chris

Chris

I think you're right - ther extra flap is common on earlier Br ammunition pouches, to keep out rain, and keep rounds from falling out when the top flap is tucked back for use. Compass was just a guess based on apparent size and shape. Don't know why I didn't think of ammunition.

The other possibility for ammo., especially if it was advertised as "1870s" is that it held percussion caps for the Snider Enfield and other percussion rifles. Going through the one source easily accessible to me I can't find a picture of one, but again, the size and shape would be about right.

Either way it's a nice early piece of British kit, although again the lack of broad arrow is a puzzle if its meant for Other Ranks. So the balance of probability is towards officer's private purchase IMO.

Peter

PS - Chris - how long are you in Toronto for this time?

Peter,Thanks for the help. It was in a plastic bin at a gun show I was at. Everything in the bin was $5. It was a mix of stuff. Thanks for the idea it may be a compass pouch and Indian Army. Rich

Rick

Sounds military then. Free advice is worth what you pay for it, but in this case you can likely CALL it whatever you want and nobody will say you nay! :rolleyes:

Many of you probably know this story, but it bears repeating nevertheless.

Chiune Sugihara, [was] a Japanese diplomat in Kaunas, Lithuania, who, defying orders from his government, hand-wrote 2,139 visas allowing Jewish refugees to flee Europe and find temporary sanctuary in Japan during World War II.

In the crucial weeks as the Soviet Union invaded Lithuania, he spent 18 to 20 hours a day writing transit papers. In name, refugees were bound for Cura?ao, a Dutch possession in the Caribbean that required no entry visa; in reality, all who could escape ended up in Japan. Witnesses say he was still writing as he headed for Berlin, throwing the stamped papers and documents out the window of the train as it pulled out of the station. (story taken from a back issue of US News)

In the very finest traditions of both diplomats and decent human beings! He is commemorated in Israel among the other heroes known as "The Righteous Among the Nations": Gentiles who put their own careers and lives at risk to assist Jews in escaping the Holocaust. A quiet hero. We need more such.

For the die hard enthusiasts, this may be interesting:

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot_det...178085&sid=

For a horrible moment there, when I read the subject tag, I thought you meant they were auctioning off His Majesty in person! Guess he'd be a bit manky by now though.

I was wondering if anybody knew what this pouch was used for. I could see some marks like these..

H IA

B HAM

1922 Thanks,Rich

I think it may be for a compass - meant to go on a Sam Browne or wide web belt. It's just possible that the "IA" refers to the (British) Indian Army, though the leather is an odd colour. I would have expected a dark brown to match a Sam Browne if it was an issue piece. But then an officer's compass case from that period might very well be private purchase, hance the lack of broad arrow marks or numbers other than the date. Might even be a civilian piece. Did it come with other (military) items?

Peter

Chris Kempton's 'Loyalty and Honour': The Indian Army September 1939-August 1947, part I, Divisions (ISBN 0-85420-288-5), pp. 15-26, gives a good run-down on the 4th Indian Divisions. The various brigades are covered in part II and the regiments in part III.

Good old Wikipedia lists the Order of battle for the Red Eagles during 1940-45 too.

At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Infantry_Division_(India)

As for most of the other Romanian orders, there is no official list of recipients for the Order of the Crown of Romania. However, information should be available in principle from at least three sources: the archives of the old Chancellery of Orders (at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs), Monitorul Oficial (the official government journal) and the British equivalent (London Gazette?).

Yes, you might find it in the London Gazette. I once owned a WWII pair and Order of the Crown to a British officer of Indian Cavalry and, by purest luck, got into correspondence with one of his fellow officers, then a very old man. His story was that the recipient had no ties to Roumania or to the Eastern front but that various foreign powers would "send a basket of medals round to the Chancery office at Christmas" and that the British would award them to officers and men who hadn't quite made the grade for equivalent British awards. Whether this is true or not he obviously believed it and had spent 20+ years teasing the recipient of the Crown about it. For what it's worth!

Peter

Hi Peter,

ALL British Decorations come cased and Pin mounted. During WW2 the awards came in cardboard boxes rather than in a case but even then they were pin mounted.

Certain decorations e.g. IDSM/DSO/Volunteer Decoration even have the pin as an integeral part of the award i.e. the top clasp always has the pin.

Ralph

Ralph

D'oh! A clear case on my part of engaging typing fingers before starting brain! Don't know what I was thinking, but then I'm usually on this forum between 6:00 and 7:oo AM central Canada time, so probably just a case of too much blood in my caffeine stream. Thanks for setting the record straight.

Peter

I know nothing about SS stuff, but didn't someone else post pictures of this helmet recently, with a different story attached? The bit of white string in the liner and the decal look very familiar. Or am I just having caffeine-withdrawal hallucinations again?

Peter