peter monahan

Case appears to be that of a British Imperial Service medal 1920-1939 era.

I didn't think British medal cases had a cut out for the pin, because the medals aren't issued with a pin, just a length of ribbon which the recipient is expected to know or learn how to mount for wear. Or am I wrong on that?

Peter

I have a photo showing three out of 11 NCOs wearing one of these buckles, that would have been after 1909 and probably into WWI. Seven others are wearing the buckle you mentioned and one wears a regimantal insignia buckle. It looks like the "S" buckle was well on its way to being phased out by the early years of the Great War.

Regards

Brian

Matt

Yes, very definitely British.

Brian

Given the way the Slade Wallace equipment was passed on to "deserving" colonies and Dominions, it wouldn't surprise me to see it in wear as late as WWII, especially in places like India, or the African colonies.

Peter

I found this on the web.

Reproduction English snake buckle

I think alot of countries used them.

It was the standard buckle on British belts of the 1888 (Slade Wallace) which was worn from '88 until at least 1903, when replaced with a different pattern "bandolier" equipment. Tens of thousands of them, maybe hundreds of thousands, would have been produced in those 23 years and they are certainly common enough, I'd think, in any part of the old Empire. Usually attached to the brown leather belt with the D rings on the top for attachment to the shoulder belts. Had one myself (the belt, with "snake" buckle as I've always heard it called) but lost it somewhere.

Peter

I was recently sent a photograph found in the possessions of a descendant of Captain George Bulger of the 10th Regiment. He transferred to the 10th from the 69th on the formation of the 2/10th - a colonial (Canada) who got his commission because his father knew some people but who can't have had much money, so spent his career in undistinguished units and places.

George joined the 10th in 1858, the year the 2/10th was re-formed, retired in 1875 and died in 1877 or so. The picture is pretty self-evidently men of the 10th (see cap numerals) and a couple of drummer boys. The original has a largish stain which the owner says is blood.

I'm posting two details from the photo, as the complete image is too large for my posting limits. What I'd like are any thoughts on the uniforms regarding a date more specific than '1858-1875' and any other tidbits you experts can gleen from the image. Thanks a lot in advance .

Peter

Very nice photos, Chris. I didn't find any of them tasteless, just honest. You look pretty dashing in #8, all dressed up.

Chris

"I 'gree for him!" as my Adrican students would have said. Photo # 11 - which one is you?

Peter

Very definitely Reconnaisance Corps. Your uncle must have been spending some time pretty close to the 'sharp end' of whatever formation he was attached to to get friendly with those chaps! A much under rated unit IMHO: "Just toodle up the road, will you, until someone shoots at you. then come back and tell us who they are and how much armour and artillery they have, there's a good chap.

Type "Discriminating General" into yr search engine. The owner of the site, Peter Twist, is a well known Napoleonic/1812 expert this side of the Atlantic and makes and sells museum quality uniforms, including Royal Navy officers'. He also sells the buttons, lace, etc etc. All repro. of course but top quality. In fact I believe he has recently sold Napoleonic era uniforms to several of the UK regimental museums, but his site will tell you more. And, if memory servess, he has an RN officer's coat on dis[lay there as one of his 'projects'.

Peter

White shield with red cross and a sword on it was the formation sign for the British !st Army, which went to North Africa in 1942-43, while the same design but with a BLUE cross is the 2nd Army, which landed at Normandy, which would actually make more sense given the info. on the photo. Do you know it's red, or is that a guess?. Of course, quite possible for a correspondent to have moved from one army formation to another and perhaps niot bothered to update his badges - he was unlikley to have had any Sergeants Major screaming at him for being "Uut of uniform you horrible little man!". Not sure who, if anyone, would keep correspondents and other civilian specialists 'up to snuff' re uniforms and badges.

The title on the epaulets would read "WAR" [in a straight line across the top] "CORRESPONDENT" [in a half circle across the bottom/sides].

Not sure what the beret badge is, as I don't know of any circular regimental badegs for GB, but I'm no expert. However, the Allied Forces HQ badge is a blue circle, red edged, with white "AF" on it and several of the Britsh armoured brigades and divisions used circular formation patches: 10 Armd Div. & 7th, 8th & 23rd Armd Brigades. On the other hand, the edge of the badge looks almost serrated, so it may be something really odd or not military - see remarks above about 'dress regs' for civilians attached to military units.

Hope this helps.

Peter

And as footnote - does something for indian regiments exist as well?

Thanks a lot Christian

Christian

I haven't looked for the IA Order of Battle as such, but I have a small, self-published pamphlet by a Frenchman which contains drawings of the badges of about 40-50 Indian Army regiments who served in France 1914-1917, mostly cavalry units.

With each badge are short notes on when the unit arrived in and left France, so I'm assuming that the info. was readily available 30+ years ago when I first picked up the book. Almost all the mounted units, BTW, were sent out to Mesopotamia in 1916-17. If you can't find anything else, let me know and I'll try to trancscribe what little info I do have.

I assume you've tried Wikipedia already, as that sort of thing seems to be common, at least on the English site. Good luck with the hunt!

Peter

I know all of you must know of the famous movie "Beau Geste", shot in several versions in the 1930's, 1940's. What is less well known is that P.C. Wren actually did serve with the Legion for a stretch, which he parlayed into a literary career. Companion novels to Beau Geste were Beau Sabreur and a third whose title escapes me. All dealt with the improbable adventures of the Geste brothers, the younger of whom ran away to the Legion after taking the blame for a jewel theft (to protect a woman, I think), and his older brother who ran away to bring Junior home from the Legion!

Wren also wrote dozens of short stories about the French and other "quaint" foreigners, in that lovely upper crust racism that was the mark of some English literature back then. The Legion was considered quite 'sexy' appaerently. For example, the Crown Prince of Denmark (I believe it was Denmark) served for a bit, though he lived in a hotel in Siddi, not in barracks and there were certainly other films and books about La Legionne!

Anyway, to meander back on topic here, sort of, Wren recounts in one tale how the REAL hard cases in the Legion and 'les Batt D'Af' would have the word "Merde" tattoed on the palm of their right hands (upside down?), so that every time they saluted an officer they would be committing an offence - against what the Brits would call "good order and discipline" - and thereby guarantee themselves a permanent spot in the punishment companies. Seems like a slow and complicated form of suicide to me, but it impressed my 16 year old brain when I read it. It also sounds improbable, but it's stuck in my head 40 years later when many far more useful facts - like where I left my glasses and keys - have fled away. :speechless:

waaay cool! That is a Fantastic document.

Absolutely smashing! Beats the heck outa Cousin Clem's signed order for spare horseshoes for the Ambulance Corps or whatever!

You've got the man's signature AND on soemthing that deals with perhaps the best symbol of his Army and his deeds it's possible to think of. Well done, Bear! Hope you didn't have to sell too many of the chilluns to pay for it!

A Major John Alexander Ferguson received an OBE. Born 2 February 1880. He was Registrar of the HIgh Court, Lahore. In WWI, he had been a captain, 5th Punjab Light Horse, Indian Defence Force. He was also the Secretary for the Punjab of the Second Indian War Loan.

The Indian Defence Force was the Indian equivalent of the Territorial Army which, in this context meant Europeans only, although I believe some members of several "Railway" battalions were Eurasian or what the authorities called "mixed race" - mostly Goan Christians I think.

The Teaplanters Rifles is one of my favourite IDF units, although one must also recall the WWII service of the Calcutta Light Horse, aka the "Calcutta Tight Horse". It was alleged for decades that the IDF system was mostly a way for British-Indians to subsidized the cost of their polo ponies, and certainly far more time was spent on playing fields and in clubs than in rigourous training for modern warfare. While The IDF did play a role during the two world wars and in "aid to the civil powers" much of its history reminds me of a quote (by someone wiiter than I) that the Britsh Empire was in fact "a vast system of public relief for the English upper classes!

OTOH, a small group of the Calcutta LH distinguished themselves inWWII by - completely without official knowledge or permission - took it upon themselves to sneak into Portugese Goa, the colony of a neutral power, and attempt to sink a freighter they believed was providing aid and assistance to German surface raiders supposed to be operating in the Indian Ocean. Quite a saga, and immortalized in a book I received many years ago from fellow member Michael Johnson.

[Thanks guys! I knew if I hung around here long enough I'd learn something of value. Hasn't happened yet, of course, but I'm still hoping.

Peter

Is it just me or does HRH Prince Philip look like he's wearing his Garter sash and Legion d'Honeur sash UNDER his arm instead of over his shoulder? Very odd IMHO.

Peter

The first piece - clasp, brooch or whatever - looks far too 'busy' to be a British award. Perhaps costume jewellery?

The second badge's ribbon doesn't seem to match any British civil or military award, though it has a strong resemblance to several of the old British Indian awards (Order of India, ect). Might it be a piece of Masonic regalia, or from another of the franternal orders?

My feeble thoughts, for what they're worth!

Peter

I think the distinction is probably lost on many of us non-French. I had certainly never appreciated that there was such a distinction with regard to his achievements and I assume most others would not have either.

I agree! Despite having taught history for 30 years, admittedly to teenagers, where the standards or scholarship are, shall we say, 'relaxed' I wasn't aware of the distinction either. Was it based solely on what time period is being discussed - pre or post self-coronation, or are there other. more complex, distinctions?

Peter

Hi,

apparently Canadian tunics are the cheapest because the Canadians could keep theirs after the war (meaning there are more found today than British ones)

How do you tell the difference between the two? The Brit and Canadian ones look the same to me :-(

Best

Chris

Chris

Apparently the standard issue Canadian tunic actually had seven buttons but, to muddy the waters, they also made a five button version modelled on the British. The only way to tell the latter apart from Brit. is by looking at minute differences in styling. However, I believe that as early as WWI we used a "C broadarrow" marking: the standard British broad arrow mark inside a large letter C.

Sorry there's no easy 'tell'.

Peter

i use a sporterized 1944 SMLE enfield for deer. i load my own rounds, and go for a light high velocity round for White tail

Here in Canada, back in the balmy days of my youth, there were hundreds and hundreds of SMLEs "sporterized', meaning they had the forestocks cut away to reduce the weight, and sold as cheap hunting rifles. Never used one myself - don't hunt - but lots of people swore by them. I suspect the ammo was dirt cheap too.

Now, finding even one of those is a trick and getting a Lee Enfield in firing order with matching parts, never mind bayonet and sling, cost considerable bucks! I suspect many of the sporterized ones went into the furnaces when Canada started it's gun registry. I got rid of a sporterized LE - cut don stock and barrel, no bolt - that way. Call the cops and they took it to the dump for you. Seemed like a good idea at the time.

On the other hand, Canada also has one of the few military units in the world still using issue Enfields. We have maybe a hundred or two "Rangers", all residents of remote communities in the far north, many or most aboriginals, who still hunt for a living and who serve as a REALLY CHEAP scout force and to train our reular soldiers in Arctic survival. Their uniform consist of a red basebal cap with "RANGERS" on it and their equipment of SMLEs. I believe the munificent Dept. of Defence also throws in a couple hundred rounds of .303 a year to keep their shooting up to snuff. And I'd be surprised if at least some of those rifles get used on seal, caribou and polar bear!

Peter

Here is a good picture of a plaid, showing the brooch on the left shoulder.

Good Day

Very imprseeive badges! They are what are called "plaid brooches" . Many Scottish bagpipers wear a "plaid" - a sort of short cape - over one shoulder and hanging down their back. It comes across the chest and is pinned together at the left shoulder with a large brooch or badge, usually decorated with a clan or regimental device.

So what you have here are two plaid badges made for someone who was a piper for the Royal Scots Regiment and perhaps for the Parachute Regiment as well - I don't know if they have a pipe band but it should be easy to find out. These kind of badges would be made by a jeweller these days, not issued by the Army, and, like the kilts, the pipes and so on, paid for by private funds from the regiment. So, the number - I can't see it in your photos - would be an identification number put on it by the makers or by someone in the regiment to make sure the badge didn't get lost or confused witrh someone else's badge. Often the badges are silver or silver plated and are quite expensive.

I hope this all helps a bit.

Peter

The AGSM campaigns often sound like something from a bad movie but in fact are some of the things those old movies were based on!

At least one of the Nigeria bars, for example, was awarded to members of the Nigerian battalion of the West Africa Field Force, a small number of British troops and a handful of sailors and Gunners for "the supression of juju" (human sacrifice) by a pagan tribe.

The campaign involved sailing up ever-narrowing waterways in Maxim-equipped launches, dodging fallen trees and the occasional poisoned arrow, landing at a village, burning the local black magic shrine and sailing away again before the outraged tribesmen could gathera retaliatory force. And that in the early years of the 20th century! Real Boy's Own Paper stuff!

Ed Haynes has already alluded to some of the 'field expedients' practiced by the Indian Mint or the recipients of thier work. In the balmy days of my youth I owned at various times:

medals with mis-spelled names -how hard is "Singh" to get right?

medals with unevenly spaced letters - quite common or ranks and names at different 'heights' on the rim - suggesting the rank was an add-on or correction

medals with loose bars added to ribbons but vouched for by records and original owners(another whole subject)

and so on.

I also owned for many years a re-named Indian Mutiny medal to a Colonel of the 5th Bengal Cavalry. His unit was one which had NOT mutinied and actually served briefly (as camp police) on the British side at the siege of Delhi but were eventually disbanded by a suspicious / paranoid British commander. The colonel served on and went on to re-raise the unit in 1857, but his medal had clearly had the unit name changed - a visibly shaved rim. The theory I held to was that he had received one named to his original unit but since he felt they had disgraced themselves he had the unit removed and replaced, although at the distance of 30 years I cannot now remember what he replaced it with. Either a blank space or something innocuous like 'Staff" is my vague recollection.

My tuppence worth!

Peter

As to "what ifs", Harry Turtledove, an acknowledged master of the genre called "alternate history" co-wrote an excellent book with an actor whose name escapes me.

The book, called "The Two Georges" features an officer in the Royal American Mounted Police tracking a stolen painting of one of the King Georges across British North America. I think its set about 1900 or so and includes sections on a free Mohawk state, American radical nationalists/terrorists supported by Imperial Russia and so on. Quite well done actually and a 'good yarn', as my dad would say, even for non-history buffs,

The below pictured are a set of Sonderabteilung der Luftwaffe insignia that are in my collection. As you can see, there was a previous Roman numeral that was picked out and replaced with another signifying Luftgau XI.

After a closer look, the removed number looks like it was the Roman number 7 (VII).

I find little things like this fascinating. Please forgive my enthusiasm!

I quite agree! To quote Arty Johnson, "Verrry Intersting". Especially that, even pre-war the Luftwaffe was re-using and re-cycling, either officially or otherwise, rather than simply issuing new straps. Would that have had to do with the way the straps were sewn into the tunic, or a way to save money?

Peter

Kurt Waldheim was Secretary-General of the United Nations from 1972 to 1981., thats why his name is on the disc.

As far as I am aware there never was any evidence presented to charge him with any wrong-doing / war crimes

during his WW2 military service.

Kevin in Deva.

That's correct, Kev. There was a small stir some decades ago. A German unit - regiment or division size, I recall, in which Waldheim was the intelligence officer, shot some Greeks in repraisal for German soldiers killed in a partisan attack of some sort. A single incident, not that that makes it any better, and I'm pretty sure that the consensus was that at best he didn't even know until after the fact and at worst knew but had no involvement. He may or may not have objected. Unlikely, I grant you, but I just don't remember.

However, if being in a larger formation some of whose member(s) committed war crimes made one a Nazi war criminal there'd be precious few Wermacht vets who didn't fit the description! Same logic would have many many decent men in countless armies through history labelled as murderers and criminals.

Peter