peter monahan

Hoping someone else would have ideas on this.  But apparently not. 

While it's generally not done to shill for other sites, 'S.A. Gongs' may have the answers if you'd care to go there and join up.  It's founder is immensely knowledgeable about Indian medals, including post-47 and princely states stuff.

My thoughts were very like Chris's.  [Scary, eh, Chris!]

Lest We Forget. 

A copy of an immensely popular, salable and widely 'fiddled with/faked' Fairburn - Sykes knife.  The original had a tang which ran through the handle and was secured with a brass nut at the pommel.  You can see this in one of the photos on the site Simon cites.  The originals are longer, slimmer and better made than this looks to be.  OTOH, thousands were sold out of the UK after WWII so it is inevitable, I think, that other makers took it as a pattern.  Nice, quirky piece, provided you didn't pay a 'FS Commando knife; price for it. 

His records of service may well be available from the British authorities, as they do have many/most of the 19th century stuff.  

The National Archives have a whole section on researching such things, but the online links are to findmypast.co.uk, who will cheerfully let you pay them to join and do research in their very extensive files.

Less helpful, unless you get really involved, are the India Office records: https://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelpregion/asia/afghanistan/afghanistancollection/1878to1880/sources1878to1880.html

And Major Gordon's British Battles and Medals confirms that the 2/11th were one of the infantry regiments who qualified for this bar.

The heraldic term for the pelican shown is 'a pelican in her piety' and, as Nick says, is a symbol of selfless sacrifice: when no other food is available the female will pierce her own breast and nourish her young with her blood.

This symbol is commonly seen in Catholic churches - on altar cloths and in paintings - and, I suspect may be important in other denominations too.  A really nice piece and a fascinating look into another time!

The dove of peace is a nice touch!  Not subtle, mind, but maybe effective?  Or would recruits for la Legion be the type who bought stamps?

Peter

He served with the 48th Overseas Battery, at Millford Camp, before being discharged [late July, 1917] to take a commission in the Imperial Army and I think his previous service with the RGA was 18 years, or so one document says.  Here are his CEF records up to the end of July/17.   33 when he enlisted.  A shoo-in for a commission and an instructor's role in England, IMHO.

http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?op=pdf&app=CEF&id=B8542-S016

The regimental museum says this about the boar:

"In 1871 the Queen’s daughter, HRH Princess Louise, married the Marquess of Lorne, (later 9th Duke of Argyll) and at the wedding the 91st provided the Guard of Honour. A year later in 1872 she was appointed Colonel-in-Chief and the 91st became ‘Princess Louise’s Argyllshire Highlanders’, with her coronet and cipher and the Argyll Boar’s Head and motto of ‘Ne Obliviscaris’ added to their insignia." of the 'cat-a-mountain'.

Not a knife and fork but specialized haggis hunting tools!

What a lovely thing. 

M'Lord.  You are not being ignored!  I saw your post and fully intended to see what I could dig up, but life intervened: had to buy a new computer and now have to find a new car.   

That said, I do hope to find some photos of relevance to your question.  And welcome to the GMIC!

Peter

In this day and age, as you say, the thought that a 20 year old was 'in charge' of men's lives and thousands of pounds worth of equipment seems almost insane  but, as they say, 'there was a war on'.  Last year I met a man who'd celebrated his 18th birthday [perhaps not officially] on the beaches of Normandy as a Sergeant in command of a 25 pound anti-tank gun and crew of 6.  He stayed in after the War and made Sgt Major in the RCA and met at least one surviving Gunner from his crew, all of whom were older than he was.

In the Great War, education and social class were often seen as indicators of someone who was 'officer material', to the frequent despair of log service troops and NCOs.  A war time commission, 30-90 days training and a trip to the Front were depressingly common.  I say 'depressingly' because, inevitably, at least some of these officers got themselves and others killed through sheer inexperience. 

If you search out the war diary of any RGA unit you will likely be able to get a good sense of how an Gun or Battery spent it's time when not in action by reading the entries describing daily activities and training.  Some of the diaries may be quite detailed in that respect: 'B Battery practice calibration, C Battery worked on repairing gun carriages' or something of the sort for a given day.  

Not a lot of help, I'm afraid, but perhaps a slim thread to follow up.  Have you identified which Battery or Regiment he was with?

Peter

Excellent!

SSM, welcome to the GMIC!  I hope someone here can help, though this is a very specialized field indeed.  I know a tiny bit about it - if you'd like to click on my icon and private message me, feel free.

Your late great-great uncle's medals should have been sent to the family after his death was confirmed,  by the Indian Mint, but it is not uncommon to hear of such things being returned as undeliverable - if the family had moved, for example - or simply lost in the vast number of medals being sent out, as I'm sure you know how large the IA's contribution was in WWII.

There is a web site somewhat irreverently named 'S A Gongs', run by an American prof who is one of the [English speaking] experts on post WWII Indian and Pakistani medals.  You can join that site by applying and they may be able to steer you to sources for the post-1947 medals.  They are not uncommon and can usually be obtained fairly cheaply.  The WWII British/Indian issue medals are getting up there in price but as most were issued unnamed - unlike the Indian ones! - you can pick up singles to make up the group again.  Sadly, as the IA did name its WWII medals, the lost ones cannot be replaced with identical versions.  But, again, not too hard to get most of the gongs on your list.  Some Indian sources sell what are called 'tailor's copies' of the commoner post-47 medals, unnanmed of course, for those looking to make up extra sets or replace lost ones. 

I hope this iis some small help.  Please do contact me if you think it useful.

Peter Monahan

Excellent.  Thanks, Noor. 

Yes, the infamous 'Sausage and Tumtum' Corps.    They were officially was renamed the "Indian Army Service Corps" in 1923, which might explain the difference in the serial numbers, though 'Allah Dad', with or without the 'h' would not be an uncommon name in the Punjab.  'D.T.T.' might stand for Divisional Transport Txxx Company or something even more exotic. 

Major L. L. Gordon, in British Battles and Medals [4th edition] alleges that

'there were in addition [to the regiments] medals given to the Indian Army Service Corps and Medical Service unts and a host of small formations such as the Soda Water Sections whose titles illustrate the complexity of modern war.'

Combine that with Indian Mint staff only semi-fluent in the Roman alphabet - see dropped 'h' above - and the possibilities are endless.  Any one of the three letters in 'D.T.T.' might be an error, though I would look for 'Divisional...' were I you. 

"Would the Balkan theater not be Salonika? Or is that "Asia" on the cards? Not well versed in the MICs"

Interestng question, which occurred to me too but which I haven'ty followed up yet.  It's entirely possible, given the British imperial view of the globe that anywhere 'east of Suez' or, in ths case, east of Malta, was 'Asia' for official purposes: solar topis, cholera belts and all those other jolly bits which made the Empire so grand.

Anna

Welcome to the GMIC!  As ths is a very old thread, you may have better luck contacting the person who posted directly.  If you clck on the name, it should take you to that member's account and you can send him/her a private message.  Many of us have been around for 'a while' , post all over the place and don't necessarily  check all our older posts for responses.

Peter

Absolutely.  For British medals your frst stop should be the Natonal Archves:http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-medal-index-cards-1914-1920/

Ancestry.com - which you pay to use or access, if you're lucky, at your local public library, also has pretty good frecords on the subject: https://search.ancestry.com.au/search/category.aspx?cat=39

I know a bit about researching Canadians, WWI, should any such medals come your way!

Good luck with the hunt.

Peter

Also a possbilty, in fact it sounds more likely than my theory.  To quote Artie Shaw from a very old US TV show, 'Veery interestng'.

So, a primitive form of safety devce or simply meant to protect the hammer [and presumably the cartridges/cylinder] from wear?

Bhat acha!  Excellent news.

You need a researcher n the UK, or at least someone who has access to the British records.   I believe they too are now avalable on Ancestry.com but membershps are annual and perhaps more than you want to pay.  he:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/first-world-war/

http://www.greatwar.co.uk/research/family-history/trace-ww1-british-soldier.htm

Good luck!

Peter

I only pay for Ancestry.ca  and there are 50 pages [8-10 per page] of 'c.m. wood's, but I'll keep looking when I get some time.   Almost certainly an outler, though, and not a fabrication. 

The late Gene Ursual was both ex-RCMP and a very knowledgable and highly respected dealer/collector and I'm sure Tanya, his daughter, the same, though I've never dealt with her personally.  They would recognize a fake and not sell it on.  Dtto DNW.  And it would be an odd thing to fake!   Keep looking!