Jeanette

' alt='' class='ipsImage' >

Hi, I don't know if I am posting this correct, but here goes, and bear with me folks, I have a question, take a look at this, My Great Great Grandad James Carter, born 1859, Iden, Sussex, he is on this document, now, I would really like to know if anyone out there can tell me what it means? It has Regimental number of 2083, and then at end of line it is ticked, and a number of 128, does anyone know what this means?. I think the medals were forfeited, but I don't really know for sure, I read somewhere that some medals were sent back and melted?, but I do not know this for sure.I know he was in the 8th royal irish hussars. I have been trying to find more of him, or any mentions of him anywhere, so I need all the expertise to help me!! so HELP!!!. You are all so helpful on here, maybe someone will find something else for me on this.

Kindest Regards

Jeanette Newton.' alt='' class='ipsImage' >

Thank you every body for your help, and I would love to know more about the 8th hussars history.

Well someone will either confirm or deny this, but my immediate impression is that we're looking at a gentleman serving in a British "Hussars" Regiment, based on the heavily frogged jacket being worn. The photo was obviously taken overseas and I wouldn't be surrpised if it was taken in India. Sadly cavalry regiments and especially Hussars are noted for not wearing insignia with their uniforms, which makes it hard to identify the unit.

Hi, I do now know that he was in the 8th Royal Irish Hussars.

A newer photo has come up of my Great Great Grandad James Carter, just thought I would share it with you. Can you tell me what colors he would have worn in this photo. Actually, anything you can tell me about this pic would be wonderful folks.

Unfortunately I doubt you could even find an un-named one. You may luck out and be able to find an erased example, but so far I don;t think I've seen one of these erased.

Then there are the Afghans that come with groups like Ed's example above. you could easily double or triple the price vs. the singles (depending on Regiment and number a rarity of the other medals).

I guess I'll have to settle for a photo of one then, that will suffice. I didn't realise that they were quite rare.

I think this site is so interesting, my son looks on here all the time with me, it has got to be one of the best ever. Everybody is so helpful.

Kind Regards Jeanette Newton.

...

Wow!!!!!. I don't suppose I could claim Great Grandad's medal for free then!!! lol. If he forfeited it, I guess he won't ever get it!!!.

Great pictures of the medals, shame they don't stay with the familys that they were intended for, but then, you wouldn't be able to collect them. It is marvellous to see them, and they all have stories behind them which is what I find fascinating.

Kind Regards Jeanette Newton.

Not to elbow in where I know, oh so VERY well, that I am not welcomed, but . . .

. . . just to add one item to the mix (and then go quietly and obediently away again). . .

Havildar Jagat Sing, I.O.M., 5th Gurkha Regiment

Indian Order of Merit, 3rd class, 1839-1911 - Named: Sepoy Juggut Sing 5th Gookhir Regt.

Not in the April 1891 IAL, so he seems to have died by that date.

For services on 13 December 1878, when serving as a rear guard in the Mangiar Pass, Afghanistan.

This was the same action for which Sepoy (later Subadar) Kishanbir Nagarkoti received his IOM3 (later IOM1 and special bar).

The Mangiar Defile 1878

A few days after the battle at Peiwar Kotal, the Field Force explored the southern route to Kurram through the Mangier defile. The main body negotiated the defile without trouble but the rearguard and baggage were suddenly attacked by the Mangal Pathans. The situation was saved by the 'steadiness and gallantry of the 5th Gurkha Regiment' who repelled every attack made by the large number of tribesmen who had massed to attack the force. The fighting lasted 5 hours but the baggage was saved. Two officers were injured, Capt F T Goad, Assistant Superintendent of Transport and Capt C F Powell of the 5th Gurkhas. They both subsequently died of their wounds.

Order of Merit 3rd Class announced in GGO 89 of 24 Jan 1879, Afghanistan - joint citation with Bugler Soorbir Damai, Sepoy Kishnbiar Nuggurkoti (who uniquely won promotion to the 1st Class and then won a special gold bar) and Sepoy Hushtbir Khuttrie: ‘For conspicuous gallantry in checking the advance of the enemy in action at the Mangiar Pass on the 13th December 1878.’

Sir Frederick Roberts reported in his despatch of 18 December 1878: ‘The conduct and steady behaviour of the 5th Goorkhas on the occasion merit my warmest commendations. For nearly five hours this Regiment maintained a rear-guard fight over most difficult ground with a bold and active enemy thoroughly acquainted with the locality, and so successfully was this duty performed that not a single baggage animal or load was lost. It is therefore my pleasure and my duty to bring the gallant conduct of this fine Regiment once more to the special notice of His Excellency and the Government in India.’

In his Forty-One Years in India, Lord Roberts wrote: ‘On the 24th May, 1879, I held a parade in honour of the Queen’s birthday, at which 6450 officers and men were present. They were thoroughly fit and workmanlike, and being anxious that the tribesmen see what grand soldiers I had at hand should an advance be necessary, I invited all the neighbouring clans to witness the display... At this parade I had the great pleasure of decorating Captain Cook with the Victoria Cross, and Subadar Ragobir Nagarkoti, Jemadar Pursoo Khatri, Native Doctor Sankar Dass, and five Riflemen of the 5th Gurkhas, with the Order of Merit, for their gallant conduct on the attack on the Spingawi Kotal, and during the passage of the Mangior defile. It was a happy circumstance that Major Galbraith, who owed his life to Captain Cook’s intrepidity, and Major Fitz-Hugh, whose life was saved by Jemadar (then Havildar) Pursoo Khatri, should both have been present on the parade.’

India General Service Medal, 1854-95 - JOWAKI 1879-8, NORTH WEST FRONTIER, UMBEYLA - Named: Sepoy Jaggut Sing, 5th Goorkha Regt.

Second Afghan War, 1878-80 - PEIWAR KOTAL, CHARASIA, KABUL, KANDAHAR - Named: Havr. Jagat Sing Rana 5th Goorkha Regt

Kabul to Kandahar Star - Named: Havr. Jagat Sing Rana 5th Goorkha Regt

OK, I'll shut up again now . . . .

.

I found this very interesting, I saved the photo's of the medals to my files. Thank you.

Kind Regards Jeanette Newton.

I have for some years noted surviving medals to 8 H and my records show 14 Afghan no bar medals and 1 Afghan bars Charasia & Kabul (this combination is noted as scarce possibly only man entitled). Ref "Forfeited" against Pte Carter's name may indicate the medal was taken away from him for some offence against discipline ie absence,desertion etc.The Victorian army was renowned for harsh discipline.Would love to see if his record of service has survived.

Best of luck with your research.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for that, yes it sounds like their discipline was quite harsh in them days, I myself would love to know what happened!, it makes him even more exciting really. I don't think he deserted[well, hope not!], maybe he struck a commanding Officer or something!!. I am hoping his record of service has survived, having problems finding anything on that as of yet.

Are these medals hard to come by?. I guess copies can be bought out there, but I am guessing that the originals would be quite pricey.

Kind Regards Mrs. Jeanette Newton.

That is interesting Jeanette.

According to my sources, the 8th Hussars did take part in and were eligible (if they actually were there) to the Clasps for the battles or actions at Peiwar Kotal (2 December 1878), Charisia (6 October 1879) and Kabul (10-23 December 1879).

If you could get his service records, it would likely open up a whole new avenue to explore.

Here is a person you could contact. He will give you some advice on what to do to get any records for him:

(Meurig Jones in the UK - tell him I sent you )

info@casus-belli.co.uk

You can also read up a little more about this time here:

http://www.garenewin...angloafghanwar/

Hope that helps.

Here is a closer view of his name listed. It looks like a real fancy way of writing James. A couple of other James are right above him for comparison.

Hi Darrell,

Once again thank you so much for your hard work in finding this out for us, I certainly will look up Meurig Jones and ask for advice on how to proceed. We were told by Kew Gardens that lots of records were lost in the Blitz and that we didn't have much hope of finding anything on him, well, you have done marvels for us, we were so excited, can't tell you!. I will look up that website too, it is so nice, I posted a picture of James Carter on here ages ago, and everybody here has been such a help.

My son just noticed on the first pic you sent us, to the very right of his name in the same row that is, it says' Forfeited', does that mean anything?.

My Great Grandad was born in 1861, Iden, Sussex, he died 1915-16 thereabouts, I am guessing he left the Hussars around the 1898's-early 1900's as my Grandfather[his son] John Samuel Carter was born in 1908.

My Grandfather always told me he[James] was a very private person, told him of two horses he had in the military,his love of horses never left him so my Grandad said, they were his lifeline and he would not mention any action he saw, sadly James died when he[John] was 8-9 years old. James was working as a Stevedore on London Docks in the E16 area of London when he fell into a dry dock [sad end for a soldier eh]. He left his wife Alice Marie with 8 children, she had to turn to Cobbling for a living to survive. I wonder if she got army pension?.

Well, I thought I would just tell you a little of the background of the man you found for us, always nice to put a story to the people I reckon.

If my Grandad had been alive he would have been so pleased, he never knew his Dad was in the Hussars, my Mum and I got very emotional, just to have some proof of where he was is great, my Mum always wanted to know about the Grandad she never got to meet, we had the picture of him and his name and that was all. I have collated every bit of information possible on him, and, once again Darrell, I cannot thank you enough, so grateful for your help, I think you deserve a medal!!!!.

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

Jeanette,

I found him on the 8th Hussars Medal Roll. Regimental Number 2083. He qualified for the Afghan Medal but it appears no clasps or the Bronze Kabul to Kandahar Star (obviously).

I can email you a larger scan if you like.

Hi Darrell,

So that is James Carter, he was my Great Grandad, I am really flabberghasted!, This is marvellous, you have made me so happy mate. If he qualified for the Afghan Medal, would you know what action he may have seen, and where?.My son and I are trying to get a picture of what life was like for those soldiers, his photo is on my sideboard. I don't know much about clasps, or Bronze Kabul to Kandahar Star, would he have not been in the march to Kandahar?. I cannot wait to tell my Mother, we have tried so long to get any information on him, and I would love a copy of larger scan to be sent to me , simply marvellous. Anything on him is a bonus. Hope all my words have made sense, I am so pleased.

Kind Regards Jeanette Newton.

b.

Hi, I have an interest in the 2nd Afghan War, I am trying to find any mention of a James Carter,he was born 1861, so the dates for this are right, he was in The 8th Hussars, I have tried for so long to find any trace of him anywhere, I wonder if you can hep? I have a picture of him posted on here, I recently confirmed his badge was 8th Hussar, the Harp. It just interested me to find a Carter on your list here, doesn't look like James though. Are there any lists of soldiers who fought in the Hussars at all?. Well, hope I haven't bothered you,

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

I am going to put my 2 cents in, even though I am not an expert in this field. The ribbon he is wearing is definately the 2nd Afghan Campaign (1878-1880). You said he was born in 1861, so this is possible. There were 4 Hussar Regiments that took part in the 2nd Afghan War:

8th King's Royal Irish Hussars

10th Prince of Wales Own

13th Hussars

15th The kings Hussars

*

Lace on pillbox caps (who had) only older Regimentsbefore 1861.

So drop the 15th Hussars

*

Regiments that worn arm badges:

7th - none

8th - Irish harp

10th - three feathers (Prince of wales)

13th - none

*

So drop the 7th, and 13th

*

This leaves the:

8th King's Royal Irish Hussars

10th Prince of Wales Own

*

You said upper badge on shoulder (under glass) "looks more like Irish harp" (than three feathers)

I believe he was in the 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars.

Also his rank seems to be some form of "Top" Sergeant (Squadron or Regimental). He is also wearing (lowest badge on arm) A Drill Instructor's insignia or Instructor of Marksmanship (Crown over Crossed Rifles). I think if I remember correctly "Instructor of Marksmanship" had about the highest enlisted rank possible.

I hope this helps, Captain George Albert

Thank you so much for your information , this has really helped me a great deal, all I know of James was that he was born around 1861, born Iden, Sussex, died 1916[accident on London Docks]he was then a Docker on leaving the army.

I tried to no avail to find records of him, but no success, I understand it is hard to do that sometimes, as records get lost or destroyed.

But, you have given me a real insight , things I can look up, I have saved all this information to build up what kind of man he was. Thank you very much Captain George Albert, Great Grandad James is framed in a photo, after the other one got destroyed, someone, ripped it from it's original frame and damaged it, years ago.I think he would be pleased to know he is now framed again, he must have been proud of the original photo though, so sad no,one took care of it. My son will be able to look up more on him now, as he is an avid reader of war history.Thank you once again,

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

If anybody's missed it, there's another thread discussing this photo of James Carter & his insignia etc:

http://gmic.co.uk/in...topic=37346&hl=

(Probably an idea to amalgamate the two threads).

Thank you so much for all that information, I am so grateful, everybody has helped me narrow it down alot, his photo now sits pride of place in my lounge, with so much info accumulated, I have been looking up possible scenario's for him. I t has given me such an insight into the man himself, a man my Grandad was so proud of, but died as a Docker in 1916 in a tragic accident.I have tried to find army records of him, no success thus far though, the only info I have on him, was being born James Carter in 1861, Iden, Sussex.He lived Custom House E16 area and worked on the Docks,so I gather from around the 1900's he must have left the army at some point.Thank you so much for your input sir, I am really grateful.

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

This is an area that i know very little about.I do know,as Timothy mentioned,that the spur on the right arm,is the insignia of a "rough rider".

Here is a photo of my grandfather,RA, wearing the spur above the crossed swords on his right arm.The photo is cica 1919.

My father mentioned to me that grandad was a "rough rider".

I beleive he "broke-in" the horses that came over from Ireland to the continent or England?

Regards,Martin.

What a fantastic photo,

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

Here is a very old,moth bitten example of the "spur" insignia.

Regards,Martin.

Wow!, that is fantastic, I haven't seen one of those, only a drawing. I have saved that one to my folder for James Carter.Thank you so much.

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

Hi

By the 1890s, as far as I am aware 4 chevron rank badges were almost always worn inverted on the lower arm in the regular cavalry. According to Clothing Regulations for 1894, the highest rank using the rough riders' spur symbol as part of the badge was 'Squadron Sergeant-Major Rough Rider', which used 3 chevrons, crown and spur (plus regimental arm badge if used). However, I have seen 4-bar chevrons on the upper arm in use by permanent instructors of volunteers, and I wonder therefore whether he may in fact be a member of permanent staff in a yeomanry regiment.

Thank you very much for that,everything seems to point to him being an instructor, and Rough Rider does fit,Grandad said he was an expert horseman.Gives me another direction to follow, so thank you,

Kind regards Jeanette Newton

8th Hussars arm badge was a crowned harp, introduced 1825, looks like the 13th Hussars did'nt have one.

The medal ribbon - he'd be "the right age" for the 2nd Afghan War, could be the red edged green ribbon of the campaign medal, both the 8th & the 13th Hussars fought in that war, but I would'nt concentrate on those two regiments.

If only that arm badge was clearer.

Hi Leigh, someone else suggested it could be a drum?, he could be a Drum Major?, I no idea what that means, what do you honestly think I should follow along the lines of?.Looking with magnifying glass, it certainly resembles a harp. Thank you so much, everything I get is noted down for me to reference.

Kind regards. Jeanette Newton.

I'm trying to work out that arm badge immediately above thehevrons - I'm wondering if it's the number "13" with crown above & diagonal scroll from top right to bottom left - 13th HUssars, that was the design of the cap badge, I don't know if it was worn as an arm badge, I'll keep looking but don't have reference to hand.

Thank you,

everyone seems to think he is Hussar, so that really narrows it down, either 8th Hussar or 13th, so it has narrowed my search. I have someone looking for his name in muster rolls, but no luck as of yet, well, he obviously existed, so I am trying to look through any old photo's of the Hussars on the web.Thank you so much everybody, and thanks Leigh.

Kind regards Jeanette Newton.

This is Great Grandad James Carter again, a much clearer picture. Could he be a Hussar?, born 1861 Iden, Sussex.[this was taken from a slide, the best we have]

Kind regards Jeanette Newton, I put two pics on by mistake, do forgive!.

By units& service I mean the regiments or corps that he was in & details of his time in uniform such as promotions, theatres of war etc (MOD is Ministry of Defence), try here,

http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html

Thank you so much, I will take a look at that web site,

Kind regards

I'm not too clued up on collar dogs, but he cap badges are definitely Beds & Herts, there's a certain similarity of design in that both regiments had a hart on a Maltese Cross above a name scroll, but the dimensions are different & the Beds & Herts design was in the centre of a star. I see what you mean about the appearance of a crown at the top of the badge, it looks like a Victorian Crown, but it's just the points of the star.

I'll post photos of the two badges.

The collar dogs - the ones shown are Beds Regt or Beds & Herts, the Sherwood Forester's at this time would, I think, have been the hart on Maltese Cross.

The Beds Regt & the Beds & Herts collar dogs varied in the name scroll beneath the hart, it should be possible to compare the two & decide which one is shown in the photo by the shape of the scroll - the Beds scroll had forked ends to the scroll, the Beds & Herts a "curly" design without the forks.

Next of kin will be able to research units & service with MOD.

Is there an e.mail adress I could write to or send to to find out more research?, what is units and service with MOD, I know I don't understand alot of terms, still learning?????

Kind regards J. Newton.

I'm not in a positon to dig out badges from my collection, but here are some illustrations

The badges are easly identfiable by the names on the scrolls - the "Notts & Derby" (Sherwood Foresters), the Bedfordshire Regiment, the Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire Regiment, worn after the change of title in 1919 until about 1958.

The Sherwood Foresters collar badge was a smaller version of the cap badge but without the name scroll, the buttons worn in the photo are the Beds & Herts Regt & which show the hart wthin a name circlet.

Regimental buttons were reintroduced for line infantry in about 1924, so the cap badges & possibly the collar dogs (have'nt had a proper look at those) date the as no earlier than 1919, the buttons to no earlier than 1924.

IN fact, now I look closer at the photo, the collar dogs worn do appear to be the Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire version.

You must have a marvellous collection of Badges, I do appreciate it, my old Dad is thrilled with all the feedback.

Kind regards J. Newton.

I'm not in a positon to dig out badges from my collection, but here are some illustrations

The badges are easly identfiable by the names on the scrolls - the "Notts & Derby" (Sherwood Foresters), the Bedfordshire Regiment, the Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire Regiment, worn after the change of title in 1919 until about 1958.

The Sherwood Foresters collar badge was a smaller version of the cap badge but without the name scroll, the buttons worn in the photo are the Beds & Herts Regt & which show the hart wthin a name circlet.

Regimental buttons were reintroduced for line infantry in about 1924, so the cap badges & possibly the collar dogs (have'nt had a proper look at those) date the as no earlier than 1919, the buttons to no earlier than 1924.

IN fact, now I look closer at the photo, the collar dogs worn do appear to be the Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire version.

Thank you Leigh, I have saved these Badges to a separate folder, many, many thanks.

Kind regards J. Newton.

I'm not in a positon to dig out badges from my collection, but here are some illustrations

The badges are easly identfiable by the names on the scrolls - the "Notts & Derby" (Sherwood Foresters), the Bedfordshire Regiment, the Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire Regiment, worn after the change of title in 1919 until about 1958.

The Sherwood Foresters collar badge was a smaller version of the cap badge but without the name scroll, the buttons worn in the photo are the Beds & Herts Regt & which show the hart wthin a name circlet.

Regimental buttons were reintroduced for line infantry in about 1924, so the cap badges & possibly the collar dogs (have'nt had a proper look at those) date the as no earlier than 1919, the buttons to no earlier than 1924.

IN fact, now I look closer at the photo, the collar dogs worn do appear to be the Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire version.

Hi, thank you so much, all this input is great, these badges are marvellous, and I do think you are correct, Bedfordshire and Hertferdshire,it has given us so much info to go on for research, I have written everybodys info down, and is well appreciated.

Kind regards Mrs. J. Newton, formerly Beadle, he was my Grandad on my Dad's side.My Dad served in Korea, at end of War.