RobW

As a "silver" Romanian Victory medal, to my mind, its not an outright fake, but a private purchase / commissioned vanity item, I have seen an examples of The Romanian Cross of War being in gilt for Romanian Officers, where as the other ranks are invairaibly in a bronze color.

I have also seen a green enameled Romanian Cross of War amongst the collection on exhibition in Timisoara, this too was privately commissioned by the original owner.

To all,

While a little of topic, and to further reinforce Kevin's point, here is a picture of what appears to be a silvered Romanian War Cross. While this item is from a current ebay auction it does at least appear to be of silvered appearance and finish.

It just goes to show that there are always going to exceptions to the rule.

Regards,

Rob

As a "silver" Romanian Victory medal, to my mind, its not an outright fake, but a private purchase / commissioned vanity item, I have seen an examples of The Romanian Cross of War being in gilt for Romanian Officers, where as the other ranks are invairaibly in a bronze color.

That is, I think the most pertinent point. Given that most other Romanian unofficial strikes have been seen in bronze it is indeed likely that this silver piece was a private purchase or commissioned item.

Then we must try to verify is it exactly the same size as the Un-official Type 3, made from the same die and silvered, is it a silver-plated Un-official Type 3 or is it a cast copy in silver?

Given the distinct similarities to other previously identified Romanian unofficial type 3 variants, it is very suggestive of similar dies. While it is likely that such dies were produced by local Romanian artisans it is interesting that this silver piece has found its way to France.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Nick,

A nice set of documents you have. Was this his only entitlement or are there other documents in the group?

Regards,

Rob

I believe that this is a "unique item", it is not a scam, I take into consideration that it is possible to be a medal conteporânea the year 20/30.

. This course, which its defects and its appearance can find disapproval at first, but still has its historical value.

I would agree Lambert, that this piece does appear to be consistent with others from the same era, and more closely aligns with the 'unofficial type 3' variety.

The statement of our colleague Kevin. with competently, proved the existence of numerous variations of local manufacturers Romanians. I agree with Jim in his observation: Officially there are only 2 types of official and other unofficial 3 4 and 5. only .. others are reproductions and copies known .. This exemplor Silver is not recognized as copying or reproduction right? is also not sensible to say that is false until proven otherwise. It is an "independent production" sand casting.

While I have seen other examples where there was a gilt finish, or a much lighter bronze finish, this example was the first one that I have seen with a silvered finish. Without actually holding the example it would be difficult to determine if it is a silvered-bronze example, a zinc derivative, or actually produced in silver.

Either way it is an interesting example which generated discussion for a week or so.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Nick,

Are you saying that is most likely that this is a group of 6 with the 1928 Showa Enthronement a later add-on? The ribbons on the other six medals appears consistent. Does the lack of the 1915 Taisho Enthronement medal raise any flags?

A nice group it is.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Gents - my latest acquisition - the Belgian Unofficial Type 2:

The planchet diameter is 37.2mm and thickness 2mm. The colour is bright brassy, and the strike is very shallow, with some of the lettering on the reverse almost vanished:

Hello Bill,

It is not unusual to see such shallow strikes where the detail is very low almost flat.

The ribbon looks like a Czech make, and there is a hole on the obverse side with a faint mark around it that looks like there has been a linden leaf there at some time.

While the Linden leaf attachments are generally seen on the War Cross they do appear on the Czechoslovak-Belgian vics as well. There was another example posted on the Czechoslovakia vic sub-thread.

Any comments welcome.

A nice unofficial type 2 (Riemer) example you have there Bill. They are becoming harder to obtain in good condition. This specimen certainly complements the other unofficial type 1 (Leisek) that you have.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Nick,

Unfortunately I didn't remember to download the pics. I recall it was sometime in 2009. Strangely enough I haven't seen another one since that time so I am not too sure of their scarcity.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Nick,

I have seen a similar replica-reproduction of the French victory medal, complete with 'R' marking centrally placed on the lower reverse, covering the normally seen Paris mint cornucopia and BR marking. It too had the clear plastic pres-fit cover and vacuuformed felt backing. This is at least suggestive of a similar maker.

I don't have any details on the originator of the piece either but noted the example on ebay France.

Regards,

Rob

And here is a combined composite of the two.

While there appears to be a reduced level of detail noticeable on the silvered version, especially on the reverse, the common design and features seem to be apparent.

Regards,

Rob

Here is the silvered variety that is causing the discussion over on the other sub-thread.

A closer inspection of the silvered version shows that, at least the major areas of the obverse and reverse, are very similar. This would suggest a common manufacturer or die.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Noting the ongoing conversation regarding a particular Romanian victory medal on the FAKES section I have a comparison to make.

To bring the conversation back to the medals I have posted another Romanian local victory medal conforming to Alex Laslo's 'unofficial type 3'.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Great points of discussion. Could I suggest that we re-copy these last couple of posts into the Romanian vic sub-thread as that will provide context in that area as well.

Regards,

Rob

Hello all,

I agree wholeheartedly that the term 'unofficial' coined by Alex Laslo is most appropriate when it comes to the Romanian locally produced models. There are variations and then there are variations of those variations. I have 4 Romanian groups; 3 with an unofficial Romanian vic and 1 with the official strike. It is this variety that makes collecting these items so interesting.

Regards,

Rob

With regards the last item, which is a Romanian Inter-Allied Victory Medal,

it has to be remembered that while Mr. Laslo, in his book identified 1 official Type and Type 1, 2, 3, 3a, Unofficial Types,

I have come across variations of the variations, so to speak, there were many small town production facilities turning out cast and stamped variations, immediate post WW1, while waiting for the Official Types to be forwarded from France, some slightly larger, in diameter, some thinner, and some in a bronze / brass or zinky type material, it also has to be remembered that these types were officialy authorised by a Royal decree.

Dismissing a medal out of hand, because of its apperance, with regards Romanian Victory medals is not in my opinion, a good idea.

A couple of years ago I came across a Romanian dealer from Bucharest selling recent made copies that he had sourced from the U.K.! apparant by their choclate colour and British variation ribbon, when I quired him he confirmed he obtained a job lot from the U.K.

Kevin in Deva.

Hello Kevin,

I'm not saying it is a fake; just that it appears to be a cast copy, or one with moulding flaws on the reverse, based on an unofficial type 3.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Gents,

I have the odd doubt about this item on eBay - item no 221099863404

The photo appears to be in colour - there are bits of discolouration.

Bill

Hello Bill,

It does appear to be a cast copy of the unofficial type 3. The lack of detail is especially noticeable on the reverse.

Regards,

Rob

Hello!

You do not understand!

There is an official type 3 by Laszlo.

On the obverse left of the inscription "ORSOLINO MOD." Right in two lines «F.M. LORIOLLI & CASTELLI MILANO ».

The reverse "G.Villa" is missing.

And there is the same type, but in reverse "G.Villa"?

Oliver

Hello Oliver,

If you note post #12 on this thread, by Lambert, it has pics of the obverse and reverse of the Lorioli-Castelli variety. On the reverse there is no mark of 'G.Villa' on the right hand side as viewed.

Are you saying that you have seen a Loriloi-Castelli variety that has the marking of 'G.Villa' on the reverse?

That would be interesting to see if it is the case.

Regards

Rob

Good day!

I am from Russia. I collect medals Victory WWI.

Today received two medals!

Hello Oliver,

Welcome to the forum and to our small group of vic enthusiasts. I am sure that you will find much assistance and help from like-minded collectors here.

Regards,

Rob

Bilco, on 11August 2012 - 09:29, Said, To what extent can the size and orientation of the stars be used to identify the manufacturer?

To all

The easiest way to remember is by remembering Elvis Presley "There is only one King, the others are all impersonators".

Look at these stars. If I asked you in five minutes to list them with the first clasp being the original clasp and the others being impersonators, could you not do that? If you said no! Then I would ask you did you not also look at the shape of each half moons or the lack of a half moon on each end of the clasp. Look at the spacer bars or lack of spacer bars and also look at the fonts along with looking at the "stars". The first clasp is the authorized issue clasp made by the only one die maker the U.S. Mint. The others are impersonators.

Jim,

These are good points about the differences in the stars, end loops, fonts, and spacers; but we are still no closer to positively identifying the actual manufacturers of these different bar varieties.

Given the passage of time I suspect that the relevant information, if still known or even residing in the manufacturing companies archives somewhere, will not come out.

Regards,

Rob

To what extent can the size and orientation of the stars be used to identify the manufacturer?

Bill

Hello Bill,

That is a question that has been posed to our US collector friends some time back. No responses have been forthcoming so the hunt for information continues. Time will tell...

Regards,

Rob

Hello Herman,

I have not seen such an example.

Could you post a close-up pic of the obverse for us to compare?

Regards,

Rob

I guess the Army of Preoccupation are the guys who go in ahead of the Army of Occupation?

Bill

Hello Bill,

Details from the original post on 'usmilitariaforum' indicated the gentleman in question was in the 129th Infantry Regiment of the 33rd Division. The Regiment was entitled to the following battle clasps:

* Somme Offensive

* Meuse-Argonne

* Defensive Sector

In addition they served in the following sectors:

* Amiens, 27 July - 5 August 1918

* Verdun-Frommereville, 8-25 September 1918

* Troyon, 26 October - 11 November 1918

The division was involved in the last Meuse-Argonne offensive. Following the armistice the division remained in positions near the Meuse river for approximately one month. It was at that time that the Army of Occupation, or 3rd American Army was raised from the following divisions; 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 32nd, 42nd, 89th and 90th.

The 33rd division was initially one of those divisions that were tasked to provide support to the Army of Occupation and guard the lines of communication. On 12 December 1918 the 33rd division was allocated to the 7th Corps and subsequently became part of the 3rd Army.

It would seem logical that in the interim time between the Army of Occupation establishing itself on the Rhine, and Mozelle valley some form of 'PreOccupation' activities would have occurred, hence the unofficial bar. Interestingly; formal occupation activities occurred in Alsace and Lorraine on 8 December with elements of the 131st Infantry Regiment, of the 33rd Division, in attendance. That may explain the bottom bar. The 33rd division also found itself on occupation duties in the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg.

Given all these events I can see why an individual soldier would adorn his vic with these unofficial 'Army of PreOccupation' and 'Alsace-Lorraine' bars. They may not be technically correct but at least it has given the vic some character.

Hope this is of use.

Regards,

Rob

Sources:

1. WW1 Campaign and Service Credits, Planchet Press, June 1996.

2. The History of the A.E.F., Shipley Thomas, 1920.

3. The History of the 33rd Division, A.E.F., Frederic Huidekoper, 1921.

To all,

Here is an interesting vic from a group to a gentleman of the 33rd Division, recently posted on a us militaria forum. It was part of a larger Purple Heart group that also included a number of French awards.

The current owner of the group has agreed to allow me to post this pic.

Of note is the ARMY OF PREOCCUPATION, OFFENSIVE SECTOR and ALSACE-LORRAINE bars. These are rarely seen.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob,

Both medal and certificate look to be in excellent condition. A great win!

Bill

Hello Bill,

I wasn't bidding on these items and hence didn't win them, as I already have certificates for all three of the Legions.

I waited for the auction to finish and just posted them for the information of the group. I would agree, however, that both the medal and the certificate are in good condition. Certificates from any of the legions are not easy to come by, and moreso in good condition.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Gents,

Not exactly a medal, but a small medallion I thought you might enjoy:

Hello Dieter,

Thanks for the link. Always nice to have other input especially as it is a related award.

Regards,

Rob

And just the award certificate.

Regards,

Rob