RobW

To al,

Here are my two examples.

The first with some bars and with a slightly extended cylindrical suspender of the more regularly seen 1918 variety.

Regards,

Rob

I do not agree with your statement (4,800 personnel being entitled to the Italy service clasp would have to be revised downward as well)and here's why.

The "Italy" clasp: There were 500 Air Service pilots training in Italy just before the battle of Vittorio Veneto. They would have had crew members (machine gunners), ground crews and mechanics' to service the new type bomber, they to would need training. And lets not forget supply and support units for this group of Air Service men. To me that would account for about maybe 1,200-1,500 men in that group in Italy. The Navy also sent pilots for training. There were U.S. Subchaser bases in Italy. As we know in 1940 the Navy Dept. allowed the Naval personnel to be awarded the Army's clasp for service in Italy. To me all that would cut into the number4,800.

If the 332nd Inf. in Italy, only had 1,200 are we to believeno officers, support units or bomber crews were any where near the battle, ofcourse not. I have read somewhere that others believe that the number should bearound 2,500 Vittorio Veneto medals.

This bring me full circle. If the Russia & Siberia campaigns netted 22,000, why do feel 4,800 clasps for Italy is to be lower?

I am heading out the door on a trip and wrote this reply on the fly.

Jim

Hello Jim,

Good points, well considered.

It would be an interesting challenge to find any official paperwork listing the final estimated numbers given these changes.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Last post for a bit as other issues intrude.

Here is a nice group to a member of the Czech Italian Legion that has seen varied service. The ribbons are a bit age faded on the front but are nice and vibrant on the reverse.

1. Revolution Medal with 3 regimental shields.

2. Official czech vic.

3. Italian war commemorative medal (S. Johnson variant).

* 31st & 33rd Regiments - Saw heavy action at the Doss Alto ridge action in September 1918.

* 33rd Regiment suffered heavy casualties at Santa Dona di Piave in the summer of 1918.

* 39th - Formed from all reconnaissance units of the 5 Regiments in Italy.

Regards,

Rob

A picture would, of course, help.

Regards,

Rob

Deleted details. Double post.

I recently obtained another copy with a number of award certificates. When the items arrive I shall post some pics.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

I recently picked up another Serb War Commemorative medal and documents. The medal was the same, produced by Huguenin Freres as previously posted (posts # 23 & 44) and the document was the same as that in post # 20.

With the medal came this smaller certificate. While my French is not that good I would suggest it is a direct French translation of the original Serb award certificate.

All thoughts and views welcomed.

Regards,

Rob

Hi all,

Here is my USA Victory Medal with the "Russia" army service clasp

Also are following figures correct regarding service clasps?

Siberia - approximately 9,000 entitled (but fewer produced then the Russia clasp)

Russia - approximately 9,000 entitled

Hello Timo,

A good example. There seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the numbers of clasps produced compared to the numbers actually issued. While these estimates are based on 1920s projections further research may be able to narrow the figures. There is always something to look at as more information becomes available.

Regards,

Rob

I think this might be faster then looking for a book(s)

Jim

Hello Jim,

Thanks for the posts. Much appreciated. I do have both books that you mention but they are still in the mail to me and will not arrive for a short while.

Anecdotally the information in these books would suggest that more than the previously indicated 1,200 personnel were involved in the battle of Vittorio-Veneto. That would suggest that at least all those supporting troops, including the aviators would also be qualified. If this is the case then previous estimate of 4,800 personnel being entitled to the Italy service clasp would have to be revised downward as well.

Interesting times.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob,

Thanks for that clarification. So, if I understand correctly then, Huguenin Frères produced this version (the one I showed above) and the version with the unslashed "7" in 1917?

Tim

Hey Tim,

Yes that would be correct. At this stage I have identified two main varieties from Freres, as indicated, and up to 5 different French varieties. There is also a possible later-issue type that is consistent with Freres manufacture but I'm still looking into it before I make a determination.

Regards,

Rob

Old thread revived. In the nice exemple in the Brussels Museum I'm also missing the TARGUL-OCNA bar? Trying to determine how many different (official) bars there were (not counting the spelling variations) 15?

Hello love4history,

In post #31 of this thread there are two links to some threads on a Romanian forum which has much information about the medal and the clasp varieties.

Regards,

Rob

Another one; appears to be of the same French manufacture as the one Rob posted earlier in post #23.

Tim

Hey Tim,

A point of clarification which I should have posted earlier. The type of medal with the small ball, as per this example, and that previously posted by me (post # 23) is in fact a Freres produced variety. I have subsequently found out that those varieties of a darker bronze finish with larger ball suspenders were of French manufacture.

Either way there are many smaller varieties that make this medal interesting.

I recently obtained another copy with a number of award certificates. When the items arrive I shall post some pics.

Regards,

Rob

4. 332nd Infantry, 331st Field Hospital, 30 American ambulance sections, Supply and Ammo Trains, Machine Gun and Trench Mortar battalions and 54 U.S Air Service pilots plus their crews (who did bombing raids during the battle of Vittoro Veneto). - In their book they mention 4000 enlisted men washed themselves in what they called the ditch and under 200 officers used a river less than one mile away. So maybe that number 1,200 victory medals with the clasp Vittoro-Veneto is low.

These combination are unique and were awarded only to these units. That is not say that some individuals did not receive the same combination.

Jim

Hello Jim,

To which book are you refering?

Regards,

Rob

To all,

I have posted this inquiry in the Rest of the World section victory medal thread, as well as here as the audience is a bit different in both sections of the forum.

I am currently conducting some research into the US 93rd Infantry Division and in particular the 369th Infantry Regiment and its participation in the Aisne-Marne offensive.

While the 93rd Division did not serve as a complete division during the Great War, the individual Infantry Regiments serving with the French Army were, according to the 'Battle Participation of Organisations of the AEF' 1920 publication awarded campaign streamers.

According to this reference the 369th was, in Part I - Battle Participation listed as participating in:

* Champagne Sector, France, 8 April-4 July, 1918; 21 July-19 August, 1918; 26 August-2 September, 1918.

* Champagne-Marne defensive, France, 15 July-18 July, 1918.

* Aisne-Marne offensive, France, 18 July-20 July, 1918.

* Meuse-Argonne offensive (Champagne), France, 26 September-30 September, 1918.

* Thur sector, Vosges, France, 16 October-11 November 1918.

Participation in the Aisne-Marne offensive is also indicated in Part II - Organisations Participating In Each Major Operation And Sector:

* Aisne-Marne Offensive, France, 18 July-6 August, 1918

- 369th Infantry, 18 July-20 July 1918.

Most references subsequently indicate the regiment would have thus qualified for the following campaign streamers:

1. Champagne–Marne

2. Meuse–Argonne

3. Champagne 1918

4. Alsace 1918

This would have translated to the following US vic clasps:

* Champagne-Marne, Meuse-Argonne, and Defensive Sector.

My query about the 369th Infantry Regiment is, if they were attributed and confirmed as participating in the Aisne-Marne offensive why were they not also entitled to the 'Aisne-Marne' clasp to the US vic?

Happy to hear many and all thoughts on this.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

I am currently conducting some research into the US 93rd Infantry Division and in particular the 369th Infantry Regiment and its participation in the Aisne-Marne offensive.

While the 93rd Division did not serve as a complete division during the Great War, the individual Infantry Regiments serving with the French Army were, according to the 'Battle Participation of Organisations of the AEF' 1920 publication awarded campaign streamers.

According to this reference the 369th was, in Part I - Battle Participation listed as participating in:

* Champagne Sector, France, 8 April-4 July, 1918; 21 July-19 August, 1918; 26 August-2 September, 1918.

* Champagne-Marne defensive, France, 15 July-18 July, 1918.

* Aisne-Marne offensive, France, 18 July-20 July, 1918.

* Meuse-Argonne offensive (Champagne), France, 26 September-30 September, 1918.

* Thur sector, Vosges, France, 16 October-11 November 1918.

Participation in the Aisne-Marne offensive is also indicated in Part II - Organisations Participating In Each Major Operation And Sector:

* Aisne-Marne Offensive, France, 18 July-6 August, 1918

- 369th Infantry, 18 July-20 July 1918.

Most references subsequently indicate the regiment would have thus qualified for the following campaign streamers:

1. Champagne–Marne

2. Meuse–Argonne

3. Champagne 1918

4. Alsace 1918

This would have translated to the following US vic clasps:

* Champagne-Marne, Meuse-Argonne, and Defensive Sector.

My query about the 369th Infantry Regiment is, if they were attributed and confirmed as participating in the Aisne-Marne offensive why were they not also entitled to the 'Aisne-Marne' clasp to the US vic?

Happy to hear many and all thoughts on this.

Regards,

Rob

I have seen one example that had a narrow ring/eye type connection for the suspension ring. Most however, appear to be this blockier post on the top cross arm. Could this be an indication of the maker's differences? Thanks!

Tim

Hello Tim,

Yes you are indeed correct. The example with wire loop suspender (on the right) is attributed to the French workshop of Arthus Bertrand with the cylinder suspender example being the Swiss produced model.

The Bertrand model differs from the Freres model in the following areas:

* slightly smaller than the Swiss produced cross.

* the surface of the arms of the cross are more convex.

* the raised parts of the cross are more highly polished than the Swiss model.

* the background grain is finer.

* the ribbon generally seen is 40 mm wide folded in the standard triangle shape.

Hope this helps.

Source: Serbian and Yugoslavian Orders and Decorations, from 1859 to 1941, Pavel Car & Tomislav Muhic, Verlag Militaria, 2009

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Here is a nice French victory medal award certificate to a member of the 218e Régiment d'Infanterie. The 218th Infantry Regiment was originally constituted in 1914 and was awarded the battle honours 'VERDUN 1916' and 'AISNE 1917' to be placed on the regimental colours. It was dissolved in 1917.

What is interesting about this award certificate is that it also indicates the gentleman's entitlement to both the Croix de Guerre, and Medaille Militaire. These certificates are often seen framed with the relevant medals attached and dated although in this case there is no date. Measurements are: 40 cms x 30 cms. I particularly like the attractiveness of the certificate as a whole.

In some collecting areas it is the actual award certificate and not the medal that is the collectible piece.

Regards,

Rob

I tried rotating the mark around to see if I could make something out by changing the orientation. Thought I got lucky when I thought I could make out a small letter "M" (right) and what might have been a "L" or "I" (left). The more I looked at it, the more I figured the light was playing with my eyes.

Hello Tim,

When I'm back in Sydney I shall check my references and see if there is one with an M - L mark.

Regards,

Rob

So, based on the period and what you see of the mark here, how confident are you that this is in fact Delande's stamp? If I have time this week I will take it out of the safe and try to look a little harder under better lighting.

Tim

Hello Tim,

Despite the best glass it can always be a bit of a challenge to correctly identify the mark. It comes down to lighting and what looks the most correct at the time. Notwithstanding that there were many French medal manufacturers that also used a diamond shaped mark, it looks to me like the Delande mark but then I have limited experience. Another possibility is that of Adrien Chobillon and here is the mark from the same period.

It would be interesting to see what you think on further inspection.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob; Happy New Year to you!

Yes, I had the boar's head but the bumblebee is a new one for my books. Bad thing about the actual marking here is, I just can't make out anything inside the diamond. As I pointed out in the French Maker's Mark thread in the French forum, sometimes a simple rotation of the mark or the lighting used and you have a completely different view of what might be there. In this case, I "think" I can see an "X" or something crossed one way and then change the view a bit and I think it's just a crushed bead from the original stipling. Still, it's a start!

Tim

Hey Tim,

And a happy new year to you too.

While I have also seen the Delande mark more often within a cube it has stayed consistent as the M - bee - D. This mark was in use from 1907-62 and when Paul Delande took over in 1962 all that changed on the mark was a P replacing the M. Having the mark on this piece in the first place is a bonus as it has marked the piece as French and not Belgian production. So much variety of manufacturers during that period.

Regards,

Rob

Can't quite make out what the maker's mark is. Tried to hit it from a couple of angles but, I think the background stipling is affecting the actual maker's stamping here. What was Delande's mark?

Thanks again!

Tim

Hello Tim,

While Marius and Paul Delande had a number of different marks here is a close-up of the diamond shaped mark in question; M - bumble bee - D.

Source: La Médaille coloniale, Guide du collectionneur, Patrick Binet, 2010

Regards,

Rob

A little closer; you can see the boar's head on the left. I can see it clearer through the loop, just can't quite get the PIC's to show the details. These marks are just too tiny.

Tim

Hello Tim,

Here is a close-up of the boars head mark.

Source: La Médaille coloniale, Guide du collectionneur, Patrick Binet, 2010

Regards,

Rob

Hello Timo,

Thanks for the pic of the catalogue. It is good reference.

I have a picture of the CANTIGNEY clasp somewhere. If I can track it down I shall post it for reference.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Timo,

And here is the picture. The clasp does not have any spacers.

Regards,

Rob

This thread totally fascinates me. I started it off with an observation as to some different victory medals, only to learn that these were really the tip of a massive iceberg!!!

I guess the variations and images that have been amassed within the thread are already a rather comprehensive reference point to any interested party.

Well done to all those who have contributed and I look forward to learning more about the various Victory medals!

Jim

Hello JimZ,

Glad that you like where the thread has gone. It is much like pulling a thread; you never really know where it will lead to. With the vic series there is always something new to learn.

Regards,

Rob

Yes, it's a great thread and probably one of the best sources online to really get some worthwhile information on these medals.

There is almost too much information and too many different directions presented here for just one thread. I know Rob and I have kicked around the idea to ask Nick to start a separate sub-forum on Victory Medals in general, as it has such an international flavor, but so far the demand is not that sufficient I guess. Lot's of readers, but only a handful actually posting on any routine basis.

I wish more members would routinely participate and maybe we could persuade those powers to be to make it happen. I personally could see several areas of interest here:

Tim

Hey Tim,

I would agree and concur with your points. I too believe such a vic sub-forum would be appropriate but as you have said, with the limited number of actual regular posters it would not have sufficient demand.

I am hopeful that 2011 will bring more regular posters amongst the many watchers.

Regards,

Rob

Also note that Stubley's "Army of Occupation" and"Defensive Sector" clasps in my illustration are identical to his "Serbia" clasp. It is not anything like the one in Laslo's illustration on page 119 of Laslo's book.

See my illustration of what I think are Art Medal Works Inc. clasps.

The letter style of the two clasps, that you believe to be BB&B, are identical to the letter style used by "Art Medal Works Inc." for their Navy clasps.

Please read in A. Laslo's book on page 93, paragraph 1 & 2. Alexander Laslo states that the Jos. Mayer's had a illustrated catalog 1933, but he does not mention that there was an "illustrated" catalog in the case of Geo. Stubley.

Regards, Jim

Jim,

All good points regarding these clasps, letter styles and catalogue listings. What would help is if anyone has a copy of these old catalogues to post some pics.

The journey on attempting to identify all these clasp varieties continues.

Regards,

Rob