RobW

To all,

Here is an official Greek vic with the original French ribbon. It was produced by the Paris firm of Victor Canale. The Henry NOCQ designers mark is just noticeable on the lower left of the obverse rim.

The original ribbon is particularly fragile and often falls to pieces if handled too much. If you can obtain a specimen with this type of ribbon; do so as even the Greek collectors have indicated that they have had to revert to the more commonly seen French ribbon off the French vic. The ribbon is also seen with the standard two pin attachment on the back but in this case it is gone. The pins were long enough to scratch and mark the reverse of the medal and so were often removed.

It was delivered in a plain cardboard and green pasted paper box with the V. Canale firm stamp on the inside lid.

This example has a slight two-tone appearance and patina which, to my mind, adds to the character.

Pics of the box to follow.

Regards,

Rob

To one and all,

As there has been a distinct lack of activity here are a couple of vic items which have been referred to previously but not yet posted.

I hope this new year will bring some more posters amongst the sea of watchers.

Regards,

Rob

Different medal. The last rim with very similar square mark but with different BRONZE mark.

Regards,

Rob

Different medal. Another rim with similar square mark and the same sort of BRONZE mark within a square edge.

Regards,

Rob

Here is the Pautot-Mattei planchet medal rim with square mark and BRONZE within a square edge.

Two more rim pics to follow.

Regards,

Rob

To one and all,

I have a French makers mark question which I hope you can all help with. Last year I picked up a planchet medal that has a square hallmark and BRONZE inscribed on the edge. The planchet medal has the M. Pautot obverse and L.O. Mattei reverse and is 46 mm in diameter, as per the pic.

While I am reasonably confident that the makers mark belongs to M. Delande I would appreciate any other, or dissenting opinions.

In addition to this particular planchet medal I have a couple of other French medals that have similar square hallmarks which have so far eluded positive identification.

I would appreciate any ideas.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob,

Thanks a lot for a great detective work and a superb elaboration

cheers

Peter

A delayed response to Peter,

For the sake of completeness here is another better full length scan of an italian official type 2 (S. Johnson-Milano) vic with the 'Impero' style ribbon.

Regards,

Rob

QUOTE(love4history @ Jun 11 2007, 13:52 ) ←

You're probably thinking of the two ribbons that go for the 1940 Croix de Guerre : one is a pinkish red, the other a darker red. The light coloured one is supposed to be the early ribbon and its corresponding palm(s), if any, should then be of the "LIIIL" type (with the last L inverted). The darker ribbon signifies a later award for either WW2 or the Korean War and its palm(s) bear only one letter "L".

Cheers,

Hendrik

To all,

Here is my single contribution.

It is a little different to that posted by Jacky (# 40) in that the ribbon colours are a bit more muted in a pinkish red, with the green stripes particularly dark. A check of the ribbon on the inside and back shows that the front hadn't faded that much. The palm is of the earlier type with the inverted 'L's.

Regards,

Rob

Hello from Athens!

Yes, there are examples of groups spanning from Balkan wars, the Great War (WW1) and Greek-Turkish war 1919-1922 (Asia Minor Campaign) to later service in World War 2 and the Greek Civil War. But one should bring in mind that recipients of all these awards must have been very senior officers by 1940-45, hence, these are superb finds if you can get one.

Best regards,

Nicholas

Hello Nicholas,

You are indeed right, that is a very nice group.

While my knowledge of Greek medals is not good I have attempted to identify the individual awards in this Navy group. Have I got this correct? I am unsure of no 12 as the image is a bit small.

* Order Of The Redeemer

* Order of King George I

* Order Of The Phoenix

* War Cross 1940

* Royal Navy Campaign Cross

* Medal for Outstanding Acts 1940 (with 2nd award small crown)

* Greek-Turkish War Medal 1912-13

* Greek-Bulgarian War Medal 1913

* Greek Interallied Victory Medal

* Commemorative Medal of the War of 1940-41

* Commemorative Medal of the War of 1941-45

* Unidentified

* French Order of Maritime Merit ??

* French Légion d'honneur

While it is a little off-topic was there ever a campaign medal awarded for the Greek-Turkish war 1919-1922 (Asia Minor Campaign)?

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob,

I'm glad that was helpful.

I would like to see please these 4 items. If there is a a French Croix de Guerre it's definitely WWI era. Let me guess... there must be the 2 Balkan war medals there as well. What's the fourth? Would it be the Greek Victory medal or Greek War Cross 1916-17? A Redeemer maybe?

Best regards,

Nicholas

Hello Nicholas,

It would appear that I was a bit too quick on the draw. The vendor in question has decided to forgo selling the items for reasons best known to himself. Thus the search continues...

You were correct in the assessment of the group; It comprised both Balkan war medals, the Greek victory medal and a French Croix de Guerre. Thanks for the pics of the gentlemen in uniform as they are good for reference. It does seem that Greek Balkan Wars and Great War groups do not appear that often.

Are there many examples of groups spanning both the Great War (WW1) and then later service in World War 2? It is seen with British Great War groups but I haven't seen that many Greek groups spanning both World Wars.

As far as the Order Of The Redeemer is concerned how regularly was it awarded during the Balkan wars and Great War and was it a rank based award?

Regards,

Rob

Hello Rob,

You are right, foreign awards are mounted right after the Greek awards, first the orders (by rank, i.e. Knight preceeds officer) and then medals (by date of award). The rationale of the latter seems very reasonable as nobody can really tell if a foreign personal valour award like Milosh Obilitch for example is more important than Croix de Guerre.

Yes, Greek military 'court mount' their medals and as a matter of fact they still do it today.

After WWI and definitely after the monarchy restoration of 1936 when King George II returned to Greece, military uniforms of all services followed closely the British model. This was done for practical purposes as Greece was a close ally of Britain but also because King George II (a relative of the British Royal family) loved the British ways excessively. It was then that court style mounting became obligatory for officers as many of them still used the previous French manner. Warrant Officers, NCO and men were not allowed to use court style but mere mounting their medal from a suspension bar in a simple line (ribbon was not folding behing the medal).

I hope this was of assistance.

Hello Nicholas,

Yes thanks that was definitely of assistance.

I recently picked up a small 4 group to a Greek officer from the Balkans war (1912-13) with a French Croix de Guerre as well hence the inquiry. All 4 in the group are separate, with very poor and tattered ribbons so I was considering court mounting them with better ribbons to display them as a complete group. Are there any measurements, top to bottom, width etc... I should be aware of??

The next challenge will be to find the appropriate Greek ribbons in good condition in a length long enough for mounting but that is another story!

A picture of a Greek officers group in the Balkans War or Great War period mounted would be of great assistance. What were the backs of the medal group covered with?

Regards,

Rob

Hello Gentlemen -

I knew that the WWI Victory Medal is a collecting avenue all of its own, but I had NO idea of the number of variations of the medals themselves, never mind the "smorgasbord" of American bars!

I have but one American Victory medal, and I am really taken with it. I think it is a really handsome medal and from what I can garner from this thread it seems to be a "good" one ...

Best regards

Thomas

Hello again Thomas,

It's good to see someone else posting items, apart from the usual suspects!

The myriad of possible combinations of battle clasps on the US vic is something that makes it interesting. As has been mentioned here in the past on this thread, a battle clasp matrix is a good starting point, but doesn't cover all the possible variations and so should be used as a guide. It is a good guide nonetheless and we are forever seeing clasp combinations that don't seem to fit the rules.

It is this variety which draws the attention.

Thanks for posting the pic of yours.

Regards,

Rob

The ribbon bar is ok but for some mysterious reason the R.O. of Redeemer ribbon is at a wrong place given it takes precedence before all other awards (apart from the Cross of valour 1912 that we can not see here).

There should have been more ribbons in this ribbon bar and there aren't any. Redeemer and Military Merit medal were awarded only to officers so one would expect to see more medals in the bar, esp, the ones for the two Balkan wars plus any foreign awards such as the French Croix de Guerre or the Serbian Milosh Obilich medal.

Hello Nicholas,

If such a Greek group was awarded where would the foreign awards, (French Croix de Guerre or Serbian Milosh Obilich medal) be mounted? Would they go at the end of all the Greek awards and then if so, would a personal valour award like the Milosh Obilich medal come before the French Croix de Guerre, which was also awarded at different Regimental, Corps etc... levels?

Did the Greek military 'court mount' there medals as I have seen some groups so mounted with others the medals were swing mounted.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob,

Real quick, back to the US pieces with those repro bars. Here's a composite photo of ones that I think make your point a bit clearer. You can see the die differences in the lettering, stars and the end hubs are plain. The reverse look like the originals.

These are on a medal that resembles the 1st official style in regards to suspension and the medal does not have Frasier's name on it.

Tim

Hello Tim,

Yes you are indeed right. These clasps closely resemble other repro clasp types that have been attributed by Mr Laslo to the firm of Bailey, Banks & Biddle. I am pretty confident that these middle clasps are B,B, & B. What intrigues me more is the identity and manufacturer of the top MONTDIDIER-NOYON clasp.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob,

Is that Italian Vic another one from our friend in Germany?

Tim

Hello Tim,

No; the Italian repro type 3 came from a fellow forum member! I obtained it recently from an FJP Auction and am very happy with the piece. I now have a couple of the italian repro type 3.

It is always handy to have spares in case of trades etc...

Regards,

Rob

To all,

The shallow cardboard box is a pale blue colour with the dates imprinted vertically down the box lid. Other French boxes have been seen with the dates printed horizontally across the middle.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Here is another World War 1 Commemorative Medal produced in France.

It is different from the specimen posted at #15 insofar as it has a much lighter tone, the oval suspension ring is brass instead of the narrower silver coloured one, and has a slightly coarser ribbon.

On the reverse the tri-fold ribbon ring hole is higher to accommodate the more oval shaped suspension ring.

Box pics to follow.

Regards,

Rob

Nice, complete set.

Congratulations Rob.

Thanks Sasa,

I mainly collect the Interallied Victory medal series but also have an interest in some other related Great War medals, including Serbian items.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Tim,

...The item you have displayed is actually the reproduction type 3, according to Mr Laslo's reference. It is a contemporary copy of the unofficial type 1 and has been seen in a number of different metal finishes. The differences are described in Mr Laslo's reference book.

More pics to follow on the re-issue types and repro type 3 when I have time.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Tim and all,

Back to the medals here are some pics of an italian repro type 3.

While not evident in this pic the medal is considerably lighter in finish than the usual darker bronze of the unofficial type 1, and is of a similar finish as the example posted in #76 of this thread. As can be seen there are minor reverse die variations compared to the unofficial type 1.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob,

Thanks for that clarification; yes, I see on your examples what you are referring to. I will need to take my one 4th Div piece out and examine it closer when I have time and see if there are any indications of hubs that might have broken off the St. Mihiel and Meuse-Argonne bars, or if they just never had any.

Will be interesting to see, as this is the only example where I have two bars that are missing the hubs and they are combined with that official "reissue" DS bar (with pins).

Thanks again!

Tim

Hello Tim,

The hubs that the U.S mint provided to: Art Metal Works, Jos Mayer, and S.G. Adams were subsequently used to produce their dies which where then used to press the battle and service clasps. I wouldn't expect to see too much variation in these official clasps although there have been minor variations observed in lettering, spacing etc...

A close look at some official bars will see that they have been simply produced without the usually seen spacers, although there have been examples seen where the spacers were actually cut off leaving evidence of the modification. I have also seen an official DEFENSIVE SECTOR bar with spacers, where it was usually produced without, so I don't think we should be altogether surprised when minor variations are seen.

Back to the 2 middle clasps. A close look at them shows that the end semi-circles are completely flat even under a glass, so it certainly looks like a design feature and not as a result of a poor moulding or die flaw.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob,

Just getting ready to hit the sack here and wanted to post this comparison of two 4th Div. pieces. The one on the left is a regular 4th Div. medal with the 5 bars (note the spacers on all except the DS bar) and the one on the right is the medal posted earlier in this thread with the "reissue" type Defensive Sector bar; also 5 bars for the 4th Division.

Note the S. Mihiel and Meuse-Argonne bars. I have to say, other than the lack of spacer tabs on the end, I have a hard time distinguishing any differences. Am I missing something here?

Tim

Tim,

You would be correct in assuming that there are no major differences, other than the lack of spacers, between the two sets of clasps in your pics. The official clasps, as produced by the 3 major manufacturers, were all made with the hubs provided by the U.S. mint, hence there should be no major changes. The official clasps are also seen on occasion with no spacers as per your right example.

If you note the ST. MIHIEL & MEUSE-ARGONNE clasps in my post you will see not only are the end semi-circles completely filled in but the stars are actually upside down or off-centre. This indicates another producer. I have not yet taken the clasps off the medal so can't verify if there are any reverse markings.

A similar clasp named ALSACE-LORRAINE, with filled in edge semi-circles, and upside down or off-centre stars, is also illustrated in Mr Laslo's book, 2nd Edition, page 119.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob and HAPPY NEW YEAR guys!!

As far as the end semi-circled areas, I have seen a lot of variation in quality and level of detail, so I am not sure we can really go by this, can we?

Are you sure the bars are reproduction, or possibly different manufacture or timeline?

Tim

Hello Tim,

The lack of a proper semi-circle, as for the ST. MIHIEL & MEUSE-ARGONNE clasps has been seen on some other reproduction clasps produced by the firm of Bailey, Banks, & Biddle although they have much smaller stars. One of these is also illustrated in Mr Laslo's 2nd Edition.

As for the LYS clasp I have seen numerous other examples of the same dimensions, font, and end semi-circles of Navy clasps that have FRANCE impressed on the back of the clasp. This indicates that they date from the 1920's as those inscribed with 'MADE IN FRANCE' on the back of the clasp did not come out until early in the 1930's.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

As part of a related project I am researching some varieties of U.S. victory medal battle clasps. Illustrated is a U.S. vic with a number of reproduction clasps where I am attempting to identify the period of manufacture and the actual manufacturing firm.

* LYS clasp - It has no spacers and is slightly wider than the official clasp with a different gap at the semi-circle on the end. I believe it was produced by a French manufacturer.

* ST. MIHIEL & MEUSE-ARGONNE clasps - These two again have no spacers, and have filled in end semi-circles and a sans serif font that differs from the font on the official clasp. While there are other similar type clasp with much smaller stars, I do not believe these two bars are of French manufacture. Of note is the off-centre strike of the stars on the clasps.

* DEFENSIVE SECTOR - Standard official clasp.

Any assistance, especially from our U.S. vic collectors, would be greatly appreciated in identifying the background and details of these clasps.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Here is a French unofficial type 2 in silvered-bronze. Not common or seen that often. It has the correct hallmark and BRONZE impressed on the planchet edge.

Regards,

Rob

Rob,

If you ask my which US Divisions vic to collect I would be able answer you with a good reason as to why. UK vic's as you can see I am clueless, but I am interested in obtaining at less one, from each of these countries, ending with letters CEF, NZEF, SAI, AIF. On the countries of India, Ireland and Scotland I am unsure. Of these seven countries listed, what might be the preferred Regiment from each country. (I am looking for just a good representation for each country).

Thanks, JM

Hello JM,

While each of the contributing Commonwealth nations that answered the call of Great Britiain and provided troops etc...for the war effort were as important as the next it would be a bold person to suggest specific individual Regiments from those countries. Such a suggestion could be interpreted as bias. Each collector would inevitably have their own particular area or Regiment of interest and even dealers are similarly inclined. If you were in an Indian Gurkha Regiment you would look to obtain such a specimen, if you were a Scott you would look to obtain a vic from any of the Highland or Lowland Divisions, and so on...

I feel that to attempt to obtain a representative group of vics from each country would be a big task in itself. I would suggest you do some more research on the contributing Divisions from each country and choose a Regiment which interests you. There are a staggering number of different Regiments to choose from so there will be many options of choice. If you look at http://www.1914-1918.net/ it does provide an Order Of Battle with details on these Commonwealth Divisions.

I hope this has helped.

Regards,

Rob