RobW

To all,

This has already been posted on the specific Belgium thread but I thought I would post it here for completeness as it is one of my favourite mini groups.

Like the French miniatures Belgian vic min's were produced in a number of different sizes from 11 - 18 mm in diameter. The Belgian vic mini in this group is 13.5 mm.

Of note is the level of detail on the orders, and in particular the enamel work. Due to the limited number of participants the campaign medal for the African Campaign is not often seen.

L-R:

* Officer of the Order of the Crown

* Officer of the Royal Order of the Lion, with palm

* War Cross, with palm

* Commemorative Medal of the African Campaign

* Volunteer Combatants Medal

* Belgian Victory Medal

* War Commemorative Medal

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob,

My guess on your CdG, is that perhaps the star was replaced at one point with whatever the member could find available. The original attachments had pretty flimsy pins and often broke off if not handled appropriately.

Orignal pins/palms are not always easy to find, so perhaps just a attempt to put a star back on. Is there any evidence of two small pin holes close to each other under the current screwback?

Tim

Hello Tim.

I have checked the front and back of the ribbon and there are no pin holes or marks. Even directly underneath the large star there are no pin marks. Where the screw has been pushed through the ribbon it has left a large hole but this has not caused any pulls in the ribbon.

On closer inspection it just looks like the individual has just placed a larger than normal star on his ribbon.

Regards,

Rob

Hello all,

I recently picked this 1914-1916 Croix de Guerre as part of a small 3 group consisting of the CDG, Combatant Cross, and victory medal. Being primarily a victory medal collector I was intrigued by the size of the bronze star on the CDG.

It is secured by a screw attachment on the reverse as seen on the pic.

I have checked my copy of 'Petite Histoire De La Grande Guerre Au Travers Des Décorations Attribuées Aux Poilus' by André Pascual and it doesn't mention it there. It is far larger than any other bronze star I have seen nor any of the others posted here. Is this an official or unofficial attachment?

Happy for any thoughts as to what a bronze star this size represents.

Regards,

Rob

Here is the Italian Navy vic award certificate. It is larger than the Army certificate measuring 27.5 cm x 39 cm. It was also large enough that it had to be scanned in two parts and re-joined.

This one was issued as late as December 1931.

This is the more difficult of the italian vic award certificates to obtain. While they do appear on the market it is much less frequent than the Army variety.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Seeing as I mentioned certificates and for those yet to see them, here is the Italian Ministry of War (Army) victory medal award certificate. The certificate measures 25 cm x 35 cm. It is large enough that it had to be scanned in two parts and then re-joined.

It may not be immediately noticeable but there is a circular embossed authority seal just above the left hand (as viewed) of victory. This is in addition to the stamped Military District seal on the bottom of the document.

This and the Navy award certificates have such lovely detail.

The Italian Ministry of the Navy vic award certificate will follow.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Here is the ribbon bar for the Great Britain group of 3 above (post # 12).

The silver rosette on the 1914 Star denotes the award of the 'Aug-Nov' bar as is the miniature MID device on the vic ribbon.

Regards,
Rob

Hello Tim & Rob -

I am a very new beginner in this field, only recently looking at it as a field of collecting that could stand on its own. Looking at this thread it is easy to understand why - soooo many types and variations!! In the past I have really just picked up Vics as I have come across them, always thinking that they are really good looking medals.

regards

Thomas

Hello Thomas,

The medals in the vic series are just the beginning. Once you start down the path of collecting vics it becomes a little bit of a larger world. The official medals themselves then lead you to all the myriad of unofficial strikes, re-issues, contemporary to the time (1920s) and later repro's, and that is just the full size ones. On top of that you have the miniature vics which are fascinating in themselves and the award certificates of some of the countries are very imaginative and attractive pieces.

As a collecting theme there always seems much to keep me busy with the vics. Once you start down the rabbit hole you don't know where it will lead you.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Tim & Rob -

This is really a fantastic thread, and a brilliant mine of information for new collectors like me. We can call you our "Grand-Masters".

Thank you again, and please keep posting!!

regards

Thomas

Hello Thomas,

Thanks for the kind words. I wouldn't characterise myself as a 'Grand-Master' but moreso just another collector.

If you look at the other country specific threads you will also see some specific posts about their vics as well.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Tim, Kev and all,

Thanks for the 'heads up'.

All ethical arguments about selling of such items and ebay rules aside it does indeed raise the topic of 'buyer beware' and if in doubt buy the book or obtain the knowledge.

That, in itself, is a vexing issue for victory medal collectors because the last specific reference book by Mr Laslo is now 17 years old, and the knowledge is fragmented at best. Both editions of Mr Laslo's works are good reference material but in a number of areas time has moved on and more information has come to light since that time.

I think one of the best ways to obtain the knowledge is to at least handle the pieces, both real and reproductions, and to have an eye for detail. That way at least you can determine what is a real one and what is a repro or a fake. High resolution digital photos and forums like this help for sure in getting the information out there. Half the challenge of having items for reference is to actually be able to pick the piece up, study it, and then document the changes between the real item and the repro.

The promulgation of that knowledge on forums is a perennial problem as well because it involves the tricky question of 'Do we post the information and thereby educate the fakers, so that they can then improve their products, or do we keep the information to ourselves and hope that buyers are wary of possible fakes'? This is not something that I could offer any new insight into.

I think that this cycle is bound to be repeated wherever there is something that is deemed collectible and therefore of value.

Regards,

Rob

And the close-ups.

Regards,

Rob

And the reverses.

Close-ups of the MM reverse to follow.

Hello Chris,

Here is a small group of French mini's with:

* Medaille Militaire, made of silver

* War Cross with star

* Victory medal (11 mm)

* War Commemorative Medal 1914-18

* Unofficial wound medal

What I found interesting is the different size medals on the one bar as well as the hallmarks on the MM. In this case the French vic is 11 mm in diameter.

Of note is that on the reverse of the MM there are the two Paris Mint cornucopia marks astride a numeral '1'. This number 1 was the period silver assay mark for a .900 silver minimum indicating the MM was made of high quality silver.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob,

Any news from your Italian friends regarding the ribbon?

cheers

Peter

Hello Peter,

The responses I've received from fellow collectors in Canada, the United Kingdom and Italy, all point to the same conclusion that it was an unofficial use. It was also indicated that the use of such ribbon on an Italian interallied victory medal could have been due to a lack of the correct ribbon at the time but I think this is unlikely.

To commemorate the institution of the 'Italian Empire', the Impero medal was created. The ribbon that you have displayed on the vic on the left was used on that medal. There is one design known that has at least 4 different reverses. Faded ribbons generally do not show the depth of the colours, with the green the first colour to fade as shown in the pic below.

As mentioned before I have also heard that the Italian victory medal was 're- used' with this style ribbon to commemorate the concept of the 'Italian Empire' during the rule of Mussolini from 1922 onward, and this would be consistent with the period.

Details and images of the 'Impero' medal and ribbon (look under the heading of 'Italian Empire') can be found at:

http://www.saintjohn...Page6/index.htm

There were quite a number of unofficial Italian medals that were issued by the Blackshirts, including a number of Regimental medals and they also used this ribbon style among others. While a lot were worn most were not made official. The Blackshirts were Fascist paramilitary groups in Italy during the period immediately following World War I and until the end of World War II. Blackshirts were also known as the National Security Volunteer Militia (Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale, or MVSN).

One of the main references on Italian medals by Alessandro Brambilla mentions the use of such ribbon in footnotes in that book. (Alessandro Brambilla, Le Medaglie Italiane Negli Ultimi 200 Anni, vol. 2, Milan, 1997)

Either way it is an unusual re-use of an existing medal with a commonly enough seen Fascist period ribbon. It would be an interesting side-point in a victory medal collection, and I have one in my collection.

I hope this has helped.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Mervyn and others,

To aid in seeing the difference here is a pic of both Australian Army Major and WO2 rank slides for comparison (Major on the left, WO2 on the right).

As can be seen while both ranks wear a crown it is a different crown. Of course some comment could be made on the relative size of the crowns but ...

I hope this is of use.

Regards,

Rob

I thought the Aust. badges have a different feel about them from the British - perhaps it's the big pearls ? I do think though that the ones worn on the front of the shirts to be a little confusing. I appreciate that they are mainly to stop sniper action - and also, that troops will know their own ranks - however, it could easily be mistaken for a Major's rank badge - at least under the circumstances it would be worn.

Hello Mervyn,

You are correct in indicating that one could confuse a WO2 rank slide with that of a Major. The main difference is that the WO2 rank is surrounded by the square border and the Major is not. That prevents the confusion although they are still hard to read from a distance. When I have time I will find some others to post a comparison pic.

Regards,

Rob

Australian Army WO2, embroidered, service dress, current issue. Mess dress is the same just on a white background. The backing patch is designed to be large enough to cover the previous rank, after its removal.

Regards,

Rob

Australian Army WO2, embroidered, DPCU, worn on top part of the sleeve before rank was moved to the front of the chest, c.1990's-2000's

Australian Army WO2, embroidered, polyester general dress & jungle greens, c.1995, 4.5cm x 4.5cm

Australian Army WO2, embroidered, jungle greens, c.1955, 6cm x 6cm

Australian Army WO2, worsted wool, c.1960. Worn on service dress on the lower sleeve.

Australian Army WO2, worsted wool, c.1960. Worn on battledress on the lower sleeve. Minor variations on crown compared to the one above.

Australian Army WO2, worsted wool, c.1950's. Worn on battledress on the lower sleeve.

To all,

To continue with some Australian flavour here are some more.

Staff Sergeant Major, Class 3, embroidered, c.1950.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

To add some purely Australian flavour, here is a signaller skills badge, service dress on khaki, c1940.

Regards,

Rob

Hello William & SasaYu,

Details and pics posted at the 'Serbia - Different Types of Commemorative WW1' thread.

Regards,

Rob