RobW

Hello Tim,

Here are the pics of the two signature varieties of the Lorioli-Castelli type italian vic. I am not sure of the reasons behind the truncation of the makers mark and am inquiring with some fellow italian collectors. More details will hopefully follow.

On a rarity scale the smaller signature type is seen much more rarely (approx 1 in 20) out of the Lorioli-Castelli variety. The smaller signature variety has accordingly been dubbed 'Italian official type 3a' as a continuance of the Laslo type classifications.

Close-up pics to follow.

Regards,

Rob

So, here is a composite of Types 1-4 according to Laslo:

Type 1: Sacchini-Milano

Type 2: S. Johnson-Milano

Type 3: F.M. Lorioli & Castelli-Milano

Type 4: Not Indicated (unknown)

Tim,

There are two different varieties of the Lorioli-Castelli Milano signed version. I will post pics tonight.

Regards,

Rob

Here's another US Victory Medal; this one probably to the US 4th Division. Look carefully at the number of campaign bars and you'll note the front shows four bars, while the reverse only shows three.

This is one with a re-issue bar attached, something you don't see very often, but Laslo discusses these in his book as well.

Tim

Great pictures Tim,

I also have a U.S. vic with a re-issue CHAMPAGNE-MARNE bar attached. It is more of a shiny bronze finish and looks out of place with the other darker bronze coloured bars. Once I track it down I shall post pics.

Regards,

Rob

Here is another Czech official vic, with 'O. Spaniel' makers mark on the obverse, but this time with a barrel suspender. These types are much more common than the previous cylinder suspender types. Note the coarse weave Czech style ribbon and the unofficial single linden leaf device.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

I have posted the following two items on the specific Czech vic forum thread but felt it was also of use in this thread.

Here is a Czech official vic, with 'O. Spaniel' makers mark on the obverse, with a cylinder suspender. These types were replaced with the more commonly seen official vic with a barrel suspender. Note the coarse weave Czech style ribbon.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Tim and Kevin,

I have a few official italian vic strikes with different ribbons. Some of these ribbons have been confirmed as those on the original issue by fellow italian medal collectors on a number of italian forums. In addition I have some of the italian re-issue and reproduction strikes that show some of the more recent contemporary ribbon types used.

I will track all the items down and post a side-by-side comparison pic soon.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Mervyn,

Further to post #48 here is an illustration from that reference. It shows a member of the Victorian Military Forces circa 1890 wearing the helmet plate that you have illustrated. Given that it is a black and white pic it is, of course, undetermined what colour the helmet is.

It is further mentioned in that reference (page 187) that the specific helmet plate was worn on both blue and green cloth helmets.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Here is one of my latest acquisitions. It is identified by Mr Laslo's victory medal reference book as the French unofficial type 2a 'uniface' variety. This item is not often seen.

The item is 36.5 mm in diameter. There are no edge markings or BRONZE on the rim.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Here is one of my latest acquisitions. Identified by Mr Laslo's reference as the French unofficial type 2a 'uniface' variety. This item is not often seen and is considered rare even in France.

The item is 36.5 mm in diameter. There are no edge markings or BRONZE on the rim.

Regards,

Rob

Here are the close-ups. The lack of a hallmark inside the wreath of the outstretched hand of victory on the obverse and the 'LA' hallmark on the reverse should be more noticeable.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Here is yet another Czech produced Belgian vic. It is identified as the 'unofficial type 1a' according to Mr Alexander Laslo's reference book. Produced by the firm of Alexander Leisek it is only slightly different than the previously posted unofficial type 1. It is characterised by:

Obverse

• a thick wire or small ball suspender
• the lack of the designers name 'Paul Dubois'
• there is no hallmark inside the wreath held by victory. This is the only major difference between the unofficial type 1 and unofficial type 1a
• more defined rays underneath the feet of victory that are more widely spaced than the unofficial type 2 series

• minor variations in the positioning of the surrounding wreaths as well as the finer detail of the country shields
• the addition of a small 'LA' hallmark (denoting Alexander Leisek) at the 6 o'clock position below the centre wreath

Compared to the official strike this model is generally seen in a width of just over 36mm in diameter. It is suspended by any number of differing varieties of the coarse weave Czech style ribbon and it has also been seen in both light and darker bronze base metals.

Close-ups to follow.

Regards,

Rob

And the reverse.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Jean Paul,

No worries, happy to share ! The only other Belgian group I have is a full-size group with a War Cross with palm, Yser Medal, Vic, and War Commemorative medal with 4 service bars.

I shall post pics of my Belgian full-size medal group when I have the time.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Jean Paul,

Here is my only other Belgian group. A nice group of 4 with War Cross and palm, Yser Medal, Vic, and War Medal (with 4 service bars; 1 gilt (denoting 5 silver bars) and 3 silver bars equaling 4 years service.

Regards,

Rob

Here is another Czech official vic, with 'O. Spaniel' makers mark on the obverse, but this time with a barrel suspender. These types are much more common than the previous cylinder suspender types. Note the coarse weave Czech style ribbon and the unofficial single linden leaf device.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Here is a Czech official vic, with 'O. Spaniel' makers mark on the obverse, with a cylinder suspender. These types were replaced with the more commonly seen official vic with a barrel suspender. Note the coarse weave Czech style ribbon.

Regards,

Rob

QUOTE(Kev in Deva @ Mar 2 2006, 21:50 ) ← Also with the Romanian COMMEMORATIVE CROSS OF THE 1916 - 18 WAR. variations are known to exsist in the design of the surface of the inside of the Cross arms, what I call the "Big Squares and the Little Squares"

Another design variation that can be noted are the points at which the ribbon ring fixing point is mounted on the upper arm of the cross, a Ball type can be found as well as a Barrel type and a Post type, please see pictures.

Kev in Dev.

Nice to see that my images have found their way to this site!

If you would like to have more information on the versions of this cross as well as on the variations of its clasps, please take a look at the two topics opened last year on the WorldWar2.ro Forum: Variants of the WWI Commemorative Cross and Clasps of the WWI Commemorative Cross.

Hello Carol I,

It is quite possible that, aside from local Romanian manufacturers, a variety of this medal was also produced by the Paris firm of M. Delande. They were a prolific medal producer and I have seen examples of their work in producing medals relating to the Great War for many countries including Czechoslovakia, Italy, as well as the Japanese and US Victory and many others. I have attached a picture of an illustration from the 1934 catalogue of M. Delande, where it shows the Romanian Commemorative Cross suspended by a ball and with what appears to be a smaller ball suspender.

I hope this is of use.

Regards,

Rob

Here are the close-ups. The 'R' hallmark on the reverse should be more noticeable.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Here is a Czech produced Belgian vic. It is identified as the 'unofficial type 2' according to Mr Alexander Laslo's reference book. Produced by the Prague firm of Edward Riemer it is characterised by:

Obverse

• a thick wire or small ball suspender
• the lack of the designers name 'Paul Dubois'
• more defined rays underneath the feet of victory

• minor variations in the positioning and finer detail of the country shields
• the addition of a small 'R' hallmark (denoting Riemer) at the 6 o'clock position below the centre wreath

Compared to the official strike this model is generally wider at over 37mm in diameter with examples being seen with either a thicker or thin planchet. It is suspended by the coarse weave Czech style ribbon and it has also been seen in both light and darker bronze base metals. Other examples have been identified with an unofficial single linden leaf symbol attached to the ribbon.

I hope it is of use.

Close-ups to follow.

Regards,

Rob

Thanks for the info about the book Rob.

Tony

No worries Tony. I am a big believer in getting the information out there amongst the collecting fraternity.

If you think I can help let me know.

Regards,

Rob

I often wonder how many Aussies belong to the Forum - I know that not enough of them are posting !! I wonder if the Chairman ever posts a breakdown by Country - mind you, he's probably getting over one after all the up-dates.....

What could be our next Aust. topic ?

Mervyn,

A fascinating area of study is the Australian Colour Patch system. It was introduced in the Great War and has been used in some form since then. The sheer volume of unit patches would be an interesting study in itself.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Just when you thought 'it was safe to go back in the water' here is yet another Australian badge reference book.

In the days before Australian Federation in 1901 the individual states were separate entities. This lead to a wide variety of state militia units and consequently some very interesting badges. This book is a very good pictorial listing of the military badges of New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia and Tasmania before Federation.

ISBN : 0 909458 22 7

Copyright : 2000

316 pages, black and white illustrations.

Unfortunately this book is long out of print and quite difficult to obtain.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Here is the accompanying miniature for the Brazil vic. Produced in France it is not often found. 15.5mm diameter.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

Here is a Brazil vic. It was originally on loan to me for research purposes but is now happily part of my collection. An official type 2 according to Mr Laslo's book (no edge mintmark).

Regards,

Rob

All these great ref. books you keep showing - my bookshop in UK is going 'crazy' trying to find them. Should you ever find another copy of the Slouch hat one, I will very happily add your costs and postage.

Hello Mervyn,

Item located. PM sent.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob!

I have always loved the WWI Victory Medals and am still trying to complete my set. I would really love to see the different Czech pieces you have for comparison. I have a couple myself (O'Spainel) but do not have one with the coarser grain ribbon yet.

I always took an affectionate preference towards the American version but, I personally think the Italian design has to be the most inspiring.

Tim

Hello Tim,

I have posted a few times so far with elements of my vic collection, in the applicable country sections. So far I can recall posting a couple of items in the Czechoslovak, France, Great Britain and Japan vic threads as well a few more in the 'Rest of the world' vic topic. On that thread I have also posted a couple of panoramic shots of all the standard victory medal types so you may want to have a look there.

I will be posting more pics here on this thread of the Czech produced Belgian vics and then eventually others in the applicable country listing. This will be dependent on my work and my temperamental scanner.

It would, of course, be advantageous for a single Victory medal thread to be established. This would allow different sub-threads as they relate to each country. As far as I can tell, aside from the United Nations Service Medal for Korea in numerous languages, no other medal has the real international flavour and agreed upon design as does the Vic; but then again I'm sure the administrators are aware of all this.

I agree that the Italian model is definitely a well designed and evocative piece, manufactured by no less than 7 different producers !!

More pics to follow when I have time.

Regards,

Rob