RobW

Hi Gents,

As threatened, the close-ups of my Unoff Type 1:

Some of the horizontals in the letters are very faint - the T in ITALIA is typical - and some of the diagonal strokes in the Ns go to the bottom of the right-hand vertical, while others are part way up. The final A in (AME)RICA is very shy - just the top angle peeping over the leaf!

Bill

Hello Bill,

A nice example, in surprisingly good condition, of the unofficial type 1. Have fun trying to obtain a replacement ribbon.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Bill,

Yes; that is a nice succinct collection of type examples.

A closer inspection of each individual example, in the close-up pics, provides some more clarity to the varieties. Looking at these close-ups I identified the following:

* Belgian - Official strike.
* Brazil - An official strike. Not being able to see the rim means you can't see if it is a type 1 or a type 2.
* Cuba - very difficult to tell due to the darkness of the close-up picture.
* Czechoslovak - Reissue type 1.
* France - Official type.

* Great Britain - Official type 2.
* Greece - Unofficial type 2.
* Italy - Official type, difficult to tell if type 1, 2, or 3
* Japan - definitely a reproduction type.
* Portugal - Reproduction type 2.
* Romania - Official type.
* Siam - Reproduction type 1.
* South Africa - difficult to see at the bottom of the display but certainly looks like an official strike.
* United States - Reproduction type.

The numbering variety types are taken from Alex Laslo's second edition.

All in all a good collection of type examples. What is interesting is the large number of reproduction examples with the Czechoslovak Reissue type 1 being particularly difficult to find. It would be of note to see the background behind this collection.

I am sure if there is a very keen buyer, not wanting to sit and wait patiently to accrue such a type collection over time, this would be a very attractive opportunity.

Regards,

Rob

Hello to all

(unofficial Romanian) type-3, type-3A, type-4 and type-4A.

Regards to all, Jim

Double click on photo to enlarge photo!

new post.jpg

Hello Jim,

The numbering system for my post (# 158) identifying the item as the unofficial type 3a, is based off that in Mr Laslo's second edition book. I am sure that there are other examples and varieties, as shown in your post.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Jean.

Yes, there is marked very clear.

fr635171069544508365.jpg

fr635171069760204924.jpg

Best Regards

Lambert

Hello Lambert,

A very nice piece that you have obtained. The edge markings of Chobillon and BRONZE are very clear.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Bill,

It is a nice unofficial type 3 nonetheless. The unofficial type 3a are particularly scarce and hard to find.

Regards,

Rob

To one and all,

For those yet to see such an example, here is a pic of the Romanian unofficial type 3a. The reverse details and differences are very noticeable. This should clear up any confusion over the reverse details for those looking for one.

This particular example sold online some months ago. They are not seen often.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Gents,

I'm venturing into the Romanians again, after my debacle in April, with what I think is the Unofficial Type 1 with ball suspension. Unfortunately, it has a modern British ribbon, which I'll have to try to find a replacement for.

I'll produce some close-ups of the countries on the reverse in due course.

Bill

Hello Bill,

A nice unofficial type you have. As you have indicated it is a bit more difficult to obtain these Romanian pieces with correct era or correct to type ribbon. In a lot of cases the French ribbon was used so that would be a suitable substitute.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Gents,

I've just acquired a Belgian Official Type which appears to have a slightly odd suspension. It looks more oval when seen from front or rear, while it's a mis-shapen sphere in side view.

Obverse close-up. The solder joint is much wider than other examples I've seen - almost as wide as the suspension.

Reverse close-up. The ball is certainly not spherical!

Side view of suspension. The hole is elongated F-R and the odd shape of the sphere is evident. The ball has striations running across it from L-R.

The name of the designer is on the obverse, although the IS of DUBOIS is almost invisible.

The 'ball' measures 4.5mm from side to side, and approximately 5.6mm front to rear and top to bottom - difficult to get an accurate measure due to the odd shape!

So, is this just an oddity or something more significant?

Bill

Hello Bill,

I have seen Belgian vics (official ones) that have both smaller and larger balls, balls with larger gaps or spaces for the suspension ring, as well as balls that were misshapen, or slightly flattened. There is such variety that I would suggest it is just an oddly shaped ball suspender that has, perhaps, been knocked or come in contact with something else to give it that slightly flattened appearance.

That the medal is suspended by French and not Belgian ribbon is of note as well!

Regards,

Rob

Hello All.

Another U.S Vic. suspect. note the variety of claps and this excessive amount.

Item # 251292600201

Best

Lambert

Hello Lambert,

The CHATEAU-THIERRY and MEUSE-ARGONNE bars are US made while all the remainder are of French production and origin. You will note that there is also MADE IN FRANCE on the backstop of one of the bars. These bars are all contemporary to the 1930's so it is not altogether untoward to see them.

Of note is that the vic is also a 'wire loop' variety.

It is certainly not unusual to see where the recipient has added bars that, in their mind, accurately reflect their service.

A nice example especially with the corresponding 3rd Division Medal.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Bill,

Interesting points you make regarding these Indian vics.

I think the condition of the Indian vic is a combination of all the elements that you have mentioned:

* possibly worn dies.

* medallic composition and reaction to local humid conditions.

* a propensity for the wearer to polish the medal.

* the vagaries of time and general wear.

It does appear that the naming styles seen on Indian vics is consistent. The specific details on this naming style are contained in Howard Williamson's wonderfully illustrated book 'The Great War Medal Collectors Companion', 2011.

Regards,
Rob

Hi Gents,

A seller in the UK is offering 'die-stamped copies' of various vics:

Colour and detail should be a give-away should any unscrupulous seller-on buy them ...

Bill

Hello Bill,

At least in both the title and details of each of these listings, the items are clearly marked as being a die stamped COPY. So these are clearly not being advertised or listed as the genuine item. I would agree that both the colour and finish are easy to spot as not contemporary or original, but in this case there appears no intent to deceive.

On the other hand there is another vendor, clearly listed on earlier posts in this topic (with pictures), that lists their items with an ambiguous title and detail.

The larger issue here is one of intent to deceive. Good quality die-stamped copies listed as such are one thing. Items listed with the intention to decive the collector into believing they are original is another matter entirely. Where there is sufficient money to be made in selling items of dubious provenance someone will always make such a commercial product. It pays to be wary.

Regards,

Rob

Rob

I would like to see your medal so please post it when you can.

Regards, Jim

Hello Jim,

You will be waiting a while as my collection, except for the reference books, is in long-term storage.

Regards,

Rob

Hello Jim,

I have a similar example from Lordship with a Navy bar. I don't have my collection with me so I can't recall which one it was but it was a Fullford manufactured one with the thin backstrap.

Regards,
Rob

Rob,

I was talking about those who have these medals made, I would think the total overhead cost with be so sizeable that it might not be worth it in the long run in cost, effect, and time. Nevertheless, these medals seem to keep showing up!

Regards, as well Jim,

Hello Jim,

I suppose as long as they have spent the money on the initial outlay of dies etc... they would have to attempt to reoup the money in the end. As you have indicated these medals do indeed keep appearing on the online auction sites. I would also suggest they are probably being sold at the militaria shows in the US as well.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Gents,

For something you don't see every day - eBay item #' 221128508556

Bill

Hello Bill,

I have also seen a UK group of four {with a Military Medal} that had a DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp attached to the vic. I suppose the veterans basically did what they wanted especially if they were no longer in the service.

It is this variety which makes collecting vics interesting.

Regards,

Rob

Yes, she has .. I am very interested in this example..

Lambert

Hello Lambert,

Did you manage to obtain this example??

Regards,

Rob

Hi Jim,

Many many thanks for the scan of this catalog!!! Could you provide me a scan (200 dpi) of these 2 pages for my website? It's a great information for french medals, even unofficial, manufactured in USA... For the price of the group, for me it's too expensive, especially as winner probably bought the lot for US Victory...

Besides, hello to Rob!

Regards

Pierre-Yves

Hello Pierre-Yves,

I have 3 George Studley catalogues (1939, 1943 and 1961) but my collection is in long-term storage so I cannot get access to them.

These catalogues are a good source of information on US medals and do indeed show the differences between US produced versions of French medals and the original French manufactured items. I have also seen other US groups that have the French manufactured Verdun and St. Mihiel medals. There is always much variety.

Regards,

Rob

To one and all,

For those that may not be aware a very active French militaria forum has recently closed due to a number of 'events'. Some members here may have known it as the FIM and, while it was only in the French language, it was a real trove of information on all French medals.

http://www.forum-insignes-medailles.net

It is a shame to see such a forum succumb to disruptive factors.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

This forum, again only in the French language has been resurrected as FIM 2. It is located at:

http://insignes-medailles.forumpro.fr/

Fellow collectors that can understand french, or can use the google translation tool, would find this a good resource on French medals.

Regards,

Rob

An overview of my vic Italian..

coleção vic italiana.jpg

mod. Stefano Johnson

mod. Lorioli & Castelli

mod. Sacchini (Mint)

Lambert

Hello Lambert,

A nice trio especially with the original less blended ribbon. The un-ribboned Sacchini example, in the original paper package, is a nice example. These are not often seen.

Regards,

Rob

Here are my two Belgian WW1 Interallied medals. They have been purchased separately in time and from different locations in the world. Nevertheless, I always had the suspect they are both cast copies. Please have a look (pictures are 2000pix wide) and leave your comments. Thank you!

ciao

Sergio

Hello Sergio,

Taking into consideration that there were an estimated 300,000 to 350,000 (Laslo Ed 2, cit) of this model produced, some variation in both the finish and metallic content should be expected. While all the specific Belgian manufacturers of this model have not been identified I have seen models before that have a shallower level of detail as well as more bronze appearance to the ball suspender.

Both examples look fine.

Regards,

Rob

I do not understand why? there is a fake Italian for $40-60 when you can purchase an original for the same price!

Hello Jim,

Probably because not all collectors do due diligence before obtaining an item. This can be due to being new to the collecting area or not necessarily having access to a good source of credible information. Both volumes by the late Mr Laslo are good starting points but not all collectors either have a copy or access to them.

A quick search of online resources, of which this forum is but one, would be able to give a prospective purchaser both the information, context, and pictures, to make an informed decision. This doesn't always happen.

Unfortunately as long as there is a source of new customers such fakes will always be sold.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Gents,

Reading through the thread on French vics on the FIM web site, I found a picture of a Morlon vic that did not have any makers marks on the reverse - no cornucopia or triangle and no BR. I have one that is very similar ....

Like the one on the FIM site, the obverse appears to have worn gilding, especially visible on the figure of Victory.

The reverse seems to have no obvious marks at the 6 o'lock - there are a couple of slightly brighter spots, but even under magnification ...

... there are no obvious marks, and a high-res scan doesn't show anything better ...

So, is this a genuine markless version, or is it like the one in my post #68 on this thread?

Bill

Hello Bill,

There are examples of the Morlon model that do not have the cornucopia and BR mark on the reverse. They are not found that often.

Given that you have provided a very clear close-up of the reverse it does indeed appear that there are no corresponding marks. The roughness of the bottom part of the edge and reverse planchet does look a bit odd but that may be a result of the image and lighting.

It should be remembered that the Morlon model was produced in very significant numbers so it is not surprising that there is such a variety of manufacturers.

A nice pickup in good condition.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob.

Very cool that group.

Would you post a picture of the side brings the group? would like to see.

Lambert

Hello Lambert,

Thanks for the comment. Unfortunately I can't show the reverse of this group as I sold it last week to make way for another item.

Regards,

Rob

The LA-mark on the anverse:

The differences of the suspension:

GM1

Hello GM1,

You will also note on the first Alexander Leisek model, with the 'LA' mark inside the wreath on the obverse, that there is a faint PAUL DUBIOS stamping at the bottom right of the obverse. This is not present on the Leisek models that only have the 'LA' mark on the reverse.

Regards,

Rob

To one and all,

Here is an italian group with an official type 3 vic (Lorioli-Castelli Milano).

Regards,
Rob

Hello Bill,

Hi Gents,

Last week I was in Cambridge and took the opportunity to visit the Fitzwilliam Museum to view the Lester Watson Collection WW1 Victory medals, which I posted about in post #93 of this thread. I rang a week beforehand to make an appointment, and the Coins and Medal Department were very accommodating. I was able to handle the medals and examine them under a magnifying glass.

These are the conclusions I came to:

Great Britain - Official Type 2 - it is un-named but may have had naming erased - the photo on the Fitzwilliam web site seems to show the planchet oddly out of round in the lower part. This isn't apparent 'in hand' but the lower edge of the medal seems slightly rounded - the rim isn't as sharp as at the top.

To the eye of a rim that does appear to be slightly rounded is a very good indication of a name erased piece. A very close inspection on the sides of the medal planchet would inevitably show where any such erasing has started and stopped. Such a shame when such erasing occurs becaues it removes the opportunity to know the recipient through subsequest research.

These are the conclusions I came to:

Cuba - This medal has the BRONZE stamp on the edge, plus a very clear triangle with AC inside. The reverse matches the one posted on the Cuba thread post # 6, rather than the one in Laslo. I have called it Official Type.

Noting that the records for this collection indicate the pieces were collected by 1928, combined with the initial establishing decree for the Cuban vic dated in June 1922 (amended in August 1924), it is at least suggestive that the piece was produced during that era and is correct to type. I am sure that others will have differing opinions.

Regards,

Rob