Ulan

Hello Claudio,

Thanks for your interest:

However you seem to interpret far too much into this Medal bar issue.

Firstly, even though I bought this medal bar I had my doubts but as I mentioned earlier on the money paid would be about the same as the individual medals put together.

I communicated with the seller, he is taking it back, he wants to check on it for his own interest the money has been refunded to me great gentleman.

Imagine he would have argued like others here voicing opinions, and telling me for how many decades he has been trading medals. Money gone!

Secondly I am not defending this Medal bar why should I? What I am doing is questioning certain opinions forwarded by members in this forum, who have voiced out their opinions without ever forwarding a source!! Not in regards to an incorrect medal bar but to the individual statements done on behalf of the respective individual medals,

I on the contra have backed my statements with sources and the only reply I get is opinions and a high nose attitude!! Especially the last three posts great and fantastic contributions, displaying immense knowledge.

Where is the written historical proof that a non-Prussian was not entitled to a Centenar Medal even if not having participated in the 1870/71 war?

I have provided proof that a non Prussian who wasn't even active at the time and never served in the 1870/71 war received a Centenar medal.

There also seems to be incapability to understand and have knowledge about the differences and military statutes of nationals of the Deutsche Reich who served in their respective national military, in colonial troops (for Prussia) and a non Prussian participant of the Asia Brigade in 1900/01.

In regards to your medal bar; why should or how can a colonial soldier wear a China ribbon with a colonial medal attached? A colonial medal is one thing and a China medal another. A quite highly decorated soldier displaying a 1914 Kriegsverdienst Kreuz? (I am not saying that he couldn't). And a MVO 4 Kl., in front of a pre war officer Ritter Kreuz MVO II Kl.?

Sorry for placing all these tiring, dead horse and abrasive question marks. I am not placing my questions as a final verdict or statement - They are QUESTIONS.

Claudio, I don't take opinions as a proof I read them and will check on them and then I will come up with a source to disclaim or approve of this opinion. That's it and this is the kind of forum I am looking for I don't need people to just voice personal opinions backed by; I have been collecting and researching for …… years, upon my questions.

So have David Irving and many others too!!

If I am regarded as a "new-bee" or "low live" in this "Gentleman"-Forum, so as not to receive appropriate backed up statements well ……..

Regards

Ulan

Correction/objection!!

One has to differentiate between "Colonial troops" such as those who served in e.g. DSWA and those German troops that were send to China during the Boxer rebellion.

.Colonies were a Reichs issue and not relegated to the states belonging to the Kaiserreich, e.g. Bavaria. Those colonial units were pure Prussian units or Prussian units composing of citizens from different states.

As such a Bavarian servicemen-volunteering for serving in the Schutztruppen (Reichs/Prussian-units) would automatically be delisted from the Bavarian rank lists.

Therefore no way for this "former" Bavarian to receive a KrVM.

Now China was a different issue since units from other states such as from Bavaria volunteered, not to serve as Schutztruppen but only for this particular mission – or were even commandeered by the Bavarian army to join the German Asia Brigade.

As such they were not delisted from the Bavarian rank list and were legible to receive a KrVM being non-Prussian troops.

One of my own ancestors from Bavaria served in China as a BAVARIAN and never as a Prussian.

Please refer to 4. and 6. Ostasiatisches Infanterie Regiment and its national composition

http://www.boxeraufstand.com/

HeikoDruskat,

In regards to the Erinnerungsmedaille:

according to the Bavarian Army hand book from 1907 that I have, the following is mentioned in regards to medals being worn as "Denkzeichen" by Bavarians.

f) Die Erinnerungsmedaille. Gestiftet zum Andenken an Kaiser Wilhelm den Grossen bei der Feier Seines 100 jaehrigen Geburtstages am 22.3.1897

It is therefore (the way I read it) a medal, awarded in regards to the Kaiser W.I. birthday and is not only in conjunction to having served in the 1870/71 war or even being an active service men in 1897.

Whereas even the active service men is not restricted to the Prussian army but to the Deutsche Heer – which includes the non Prussian states.

Another interesting example: For a non Prussian, and he wasn't even active, when he received the Erinnerungsmedaille in 1899.

Karl Joseph Wilhelm Florestan Gero Crescentius Fürst von Urach Graf von Württemberg wurde am 15. Februar 1865 in Ulm als jüngerer Sohn des Wilhelm (I.) Herzog von Urach und der Florestine Herzogin von Urach geb. Prinzessin von Monaco geboren.

https://www2.landesa...hp?bestand=5087

In regards to the MVO only being awarded to officers:

Artikel I.

Dieser Orden soll den Namen: "Militär-Verdienstorden" erhalten.

Artikel II.

Derselbe wird zunächst für tapfere Kriegstaten verliehen, und kann von allen dem vaterländischen Heere Angehörigen erworben werden. Auch findet die Verleihung an Angehörige anderer Armeen statt, und sind von derselben Zivilpersonen, welche sich besonders und auf hervorragende Weise für die Armee verdient gemacht haben, nicht ausgeschlossen.

There is no order from the Bavarian King or government that I came across that would state that the MVO was only to be awarded to officers. Maybe you could if available provide me with such a publication.

Due to everyone being legible, the Offizier Kreuz was introduced IIRC in 1905.

Regards

Ulan

Hello Ulieb,

that is a very interesting medalbar indeed!

Especially the Friedrichsorden AFAIK is a very rare piece to get - congrats

I wasn't aware that the Friedrichsorden was also done in gold.

Regards

Ulan

A picture of the back would be good but as far as I can see there is only one real problem with that bar... the Ludwigskreuz is wrong there... change the Ludwigskreuz against a Third Reich officials DA ( 25 years cross I think...) and then the bar makes sense.... Luitpold medal is ok , ribbon is right... all ribbons are folded in bavarian style , the only thing the soldier has to think about is why he did not get a EK2 and the only thing I have to think about is that a MVK with crown and swords would make more sense for a nco.... but it seems that the medals are hanging on hooks at the back so you can change whatever you want....

Saw that medal bar too, and had some stomach flaws in regards to the DA ribbon.

Agree to your post, but shouldn't the Jubilaeums Medaille show a red ribbon with green outlines?

Regards

Ulan

Eieieieiei............ Ulan,

your silesian eagle has the ribbon of the Friedrich August medal of Saxony........

Thank God, I am not collecting medals - besides those already in my family posession.

Regards

Ulan

next............. the Kriegerverdienstmedaille!!!

It is N°4 on your bar.... and it is a small medal as you can see - this small medal in this size was given only to foreigners - we said this some times now... they were given for austrians in ww1 for exemple , natives in the colonies got these "half-sized" things.....

Again : THE BAVARIANS IN CHINA WERE NOT FIGHTING THERE AS BAVARIANS BUT AS GERMANS !!!!!!!!! THE SAXONS WERE NO SAXONS BUT GERMANS !!! THE WÜRTTEMBERGERS WERE NO WÜRTTEMBERGERS BUT GERMANS !!! THE BADENER WERE NO BADENERS BUT GERMANS !!!! NOONE FOUGHT IN CHINA IN BAVARIAN OR SAXON UNIFORMS --- NO ONE !!! They were all imperial german soldiers with the uniforms of the Seebataillon , the Ostasiatische Regimenter , the Expeditionskorps.......... they got special tropical uniforms , different for winter and summer , special hats , tschakos and tropical helmets - I collect these things for some days now and I have a lot of picture material I can show you if you want - BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BAVARIAN IN A BAVARIAN UNIFORM IN CHINA !!!!

So they were no foreigners and did not get the Kriegerverdienstmedaille !!! NEVER !!!

They got the MEZ 2 - Militärehrenzeichen 2.Klasse as all other troops there too !!!

Same thing happened some years later in Afrika - Deutsch-Südwestafrika !!! They were all imperial troops , not bavarians or saxons or badeners or whatever.... AND AGAIN THEY GOT THE MEZ2 and not the Kriegerverdienstmedaille !!!! Here you can see a BAVARIAN NATIVE known by name , birth place and all other things with his medals - photo is taken still in Africa

He wears FIRST the MEZ 2 !!!!!!!!!!!!! Can you see the different size to your Kriegerverdienstmedaille ? Much bigger ok.... then he has his bavarian native homestate award - the MVK of the MVO of Bavaria !!! and then the DSWA campaign medal....

HE WAS NO BAVARIAN WHILE HE WAS FIGHTING FOR GERMANY - OK ???

Hello HeikoGrusdat,

thanks for your answer - I get your meaning now to the "foreigner" part in regards to the Kriegsverdienstmedaille/Militärehrenzeichen.

BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BAVARIAN IN A BAVARIAN UNIFORM IN CHINA!!

Well neither have I.

Maybe Osprey is wrong - this and in some other publications I saw that the Bavarians for example serving in China, retained their national Kokarde on the Suedwester Hat.

This is what makes me think that a Bavarian serving in the Imperial German Army was still listed as a Bavarian.

Regards

Ulan

"Take away the Centenar medal and everything would be okay. The person joined the Bavarian Army in lets say 1900. In 1914 he was a NCO received the Austria medal in 1915 and was promoted in 1915/16 to Officer and as such legible for the MVO 4 KL. and gets killed or survives - however in 1918 it is all over and therefore the rest of the Medalbar setup is correct right ?"

NO.

Please re-read all the previous posts already made here which detail ALL the reasons why NONE of this combination makes sense for a REAL person.

Heiko needs no introduction to people as an expert on German colonial awards.

I have devoted more than 30 years of my life to researching Imperial German officers. Rules, regulations, and the actual PEOPLE... I see in my dreams at night having been doing this for so long. Please see the list of our personal reference libraries as some indication of our depth of knowledge:

http://gmic.co.uk/in...3732&#entry3732

You need to get as many of those reference books as possible and spend many years studying or...

take it from the Old Folks who have already DONE all of that and are here at GMIC.

We have explained ALL the things which are wrong with this bar.

Hello Rick Research,

easy, easy - no one, and also not me is disregarding or questioning your in depth knowledge. That is why I forwarded this post of mine in this Forum and was very happy to receive a reply that shows a deep insight in this issue.

I am a collector myself for 30 years, but I am certainly no expert on medals.

Therefore I read your post and analysis with great interest and I am now forwarding certain questions so as to get a clearer picture out of your information. for myself - thats all.

Regards

Ulan

Ulan, you are a hard rock....

Talking only about the Centenarmedaille ..............

OF COURSE COULD A BAVARIAN WHO FOUGHT DURING THE 70/71 WAR WEAR A CENTENARMEDAILLE BECAUSE IN THIS CASE HE WAS A VETERAN OF THIS WAR AND GOT THE MEDAL IN 1897 AS I SAID BEFORE ----- EVERY VETERAN OF THE FORMER WARS GOT ONE !!!

But when a bavarian was a active soldier in the bavarian army in 1897 he would NOT get a Centenarmedaille because he was no prussian at this time , ok ?

Hello HeikoGrusdat,

You know as a German we take things "very" exact

I wasn't aware about your statements conjunction in regards to: BUT NOT TO BAVARIAN SOLDIERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Could you please still update me on your statement: Kriegsverdienstmedaille awarded to non Prussian troops, There HAS TO BE a MEZ2 (Militärehrenzeichen)

Regards

Ulan

Hello Phil Steele,

the picture (sharpness - contrast) isn't too good. So I would refrain from stating that the medals are fake.

The bar is obviously newly mounted and the ribbon displayed for the Schlesian Eagle is IMO wrong.

Please have a look on a photo of a genuine (IMO) Schlesian Eagle

Regards

Ulan

Hello Rick Research,

"1st the Wuertemberg medal was awarded to both NCO and OFFICERS"

NO. WRONG. The silver medal was ONLY awarded to privates, corporals, and junior sergeants. That is the problem with it here.

Yes, you are correct - there was a gold medal for officers!

"2nd the Centenary Medal, could also be worn by those who had not been in battle before 1914. There is a picture depicting the 2nd son of Kaiser Wilhelm Eitel Friedrich wearing just that medal, even though he was born in 1883."

NO. WRONG. The Kaiser's sons wore these bacause they were "commissioned officers" as CHILDREN. They were on "active duty" in 1897 as Imperial Princes even though they were just BOYS.

That is interesting! thanks for that information

"3rd...The Austria medal were also awarded to both NCO and Officers"

NO. WRONG. This was given ONLY to enlisted ranks, and this type of this medal only between 1915 and 1917.

You are correct on behalf of the medal displayed on that medal bar - but I have not come across a destinction between NCO and Officers for that medal

Would you have a photo depicting the one that was awarded to officers?

There were, of course, hundreds of Bavarians (and Saxons, Württembergers etc etc) sent to crush the Boxer uprising. Some of them were decorated by Bavaria, as were Germans from the other small states, but all were there as "Imperial" troops.

No battle bar on the China medal ribbon indicates

1) every German Expedition Corps regiment sent to China left its 9th Company to guard all the foreign banks in Shanghai-- where there were no "troubles"

2) the wearer could not find a medal bar maker who had the correct Spange in stock. The splints on the back broke easily and these were hard to replace.

3) the medal bar is fake--and there are also MANY brand new faked Spanges as Heiko can attest.

Sorry, unfortunatly most of my books are in Germany. IIRC the main force of the German East Asia Brigade arrived in 1901 after those Peitang, Taku -etc. battles - I will have to read up in the internet. So at peresent I could imagine thousands of Germans getting the China medal without a clasp.

I will come back to you after I read up on this topic.

The campaign medal was given ONLY for 1900-1901. The "Besatzung" forces afterwards received no medal for that duty after 1901.

HeikoGrusdat

BUT NOT TO BAVARIAN SOLDIERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you are wrong on that, since Bavarian troops took part in the 1870/71 war. Also in an original Bavarian army handbook from 1907 that I have, the Centenar medal (Erinnerungs Medaille) and China medal (China Denkmuenze) are pictured under "Medals legible for Bavarian soldiers to be worn".

HeikoGrusdat

The Kriegerverdienstmedaille is NOT CORRECT THERE !!! There HAS TO BE a MEZ2 (Militärehrenzeichen) and not the Kriegerverdienstmedaille that was only given to foreign troops - the Bavarian soldiers in China (of course they were there - hundreds of them) were there not as soldiers of the king of bavaria but as soldiers of the IMPERIAL GERMANY - they fought in china as germans - not as bavarians !!!

Sorry I don't quite get you on the Kriegsverdienstmedaille (which Kriegsverdienstmedaille?) awarded to non Prussian troops - (would be okay then).

Yes the Bavarians fought amongst Imperial Troops in China, but they still maintained their national status (even on the uniform) and later returned to their original units - such as those from any other non Prussian unit. As such they would have received a Prussian Kriegsverdienstmedaille being foreign troops from Bavaria. NO ?

Therefore they were entitled to wear the China Denkmuenze on their uniform.

That this medal bar is a fantasy setup is obvious due to the contradiction of the Bavarian 15 years service award and wearing a Centenar (Erinnerungs Medaille) This is what disturbed me from the beginning. Besides the "plentyfull" EK II setting in front of the much higher award MVO.

Take away the Centenar medal and everything would be okay. The person joined the Bavarian Army in lets say 1900. In 1914 he was a NCO received the Austria medal in 1915 and was promoted in 1915/16 to Officer and as such legible for the MVO 4 KL. and gets killed or survives - however in 1918 it is all over and therefore the rest of the Medalbar setup is correct right ?

Regards

Ulan - always eager to lern more

Hello Gents,

today I came across 2 items offered at ebay depicting a EKI and EKII with a strange (at least to me) looking 9 of the 1914 mark.

Or is it due to a reflection of the photo?. Are these originals or someones "special" order somewhere after 1918?

Regards

Ulan

Hello heusy68

Off course you can find genuine items in China. Let's say about one in a million.

I have been for more than 30 years in Asia (China about 10), and I keep telling my friends; if you want to buy something genuine Chinese – find and buy it outside China. Unless one happens to know (I actually do) one of those grave robbers or illegal "historians". – and these guys know exactly about the value of what they find.

Regards

Ulan

Hello Gents,

There are still Gentlemen on this planet. The seller has agreed to take back the medal bar and to refund the payment he is a bit confused himself and wants to take the medal bar to be checked up upon.

So saschaw - there comes your chance

I did some research too and noticed three things:

1^st the Wuertemberg medal was awarded to both NCO and OFFICERS

2^nd the Centenary Medal, could also be worn by those who had not been in battle before 1914. There is a picture depicting the 2^nd son of Kaiser Wilhelm Eitel Friedrich wearing just that medal, even though he was born in 1883.

3^rd the Austrian medal, look all the same at the back. There are two versions I found out so far, one as depicted on the posted medal bar, whilst the other version displays the name "Tautenhays" under the Emperors profile. A bit strange is that whilst the medal on the bar is very detailed "new", all others depicted are kind of rubbed off smooth so as to say.

The Austria medal were also awarded to both NCO and Officers

BTW, there were Bavarians who went to China along with the East Asia Brigade - I would know of three of them relegated from the 1st Bavarian Ulan Rgmt,

So far, besides those brand new looking ribbons, I only found the 15 years service medal missplaced and the fact that someone would place an EK II, before an MVO, and the wrong MVO ribbon. I do not find anything wrong with the China medal - The ribbon is correct, that there is no TAKU or TIENTSIN etc. clasp on it - well, as long as the person was listed as a non administrative person he was legible to receive the Gold version - even maybe never firing a shot outside Tsingtau. Or amonst the delayed German force which for most of its men didn't see action anyway besides the punishment missions conducted after 1901 till 1907.

Regards

Ulan

Hello Gents,

In 1786 King Friedrich II permits the members of Infantry Regt. 32 for the “Soldiers Warriors Association” to be founded - Die Militaerische Bruderschuetzenschaft was officially founded in 1788 named Kyffhäuser Soldatenbund in 1900.

1913 commemorates the 100 years introduction of the Iron Cross, as well as celebrations in regards to the Napoleonic Liberation wars – I would think that this is a Kyffhäuser associated EK I and was therefore distributed in 1913/14 amongst its members who had been formerly awarded an EK I.

Same would go for those having been awarded an EK II.

Anyone any ideas to the number 90?

Regards

Ulan

That is the 1905 model Luitpold Jubilee Medal. It would have been REALLY crazy f the 1911 model had been used!

The BMV4X appears to be perfectly good from the scans.

Hello Gents,

thanks again for all your help and interest.

Regards

Ulan

Hello Gents,

for a reverse shot, it will take me about 6 weeks since my friend is bringing it to China.

Has anyone ever come across a photo (1913-1930...?) were someone of rank or in unform can be seen wearing one of these?

From what I can see - on the photo, even for a fantasy like order, it seems to be well done.

Regards

Ulan

Hello Gents,

sorry to bother the experts, but has anyone an idea what the following Cross, is supposed to be??

Regards and thanks for any help

Ulan

The internet is also being bad for me today-- and I am told sometimes my answers are TOO long and with too MUCH detail.

The immediate problem at first glance is that the entire bar is made wrong. Normally, on bars with the awards sewn in, the top of the bar is flat along the ribbons and the decorations should all be level along the bottom with each other-- unless there is something a strange shape that sticks out more.

Next, this purports to be a pre-1934 medal bar, but Bavarians did not wear the Iron Cross in first position until 1935.

1) This is the statute ribbon worn for ALL awards of the Bavariaan Military Merit Order until 1913. This is NOT the correct model cross for China-- flames for this class (BMV4X)were introduced in 1905. So it must be a World War decoration. This CANNOT have been awarded with

2) because this Württemberg Military Merit Medal (on M1913 war ribbon) was ONLY awarded to JUNIOR enlisted ranks-- and yet this "person" was supposedly a SENIOR NCO ( 8) ) who rose to officer...

3) Was awarded to Prussian and Imperial navy and colonial forces on active duty 22 March 1897, as well as to Prussian (and allied) veterans of 1870, 1866 and so on. It was only awarded for 22.03.97 to VERY few non-Prussian troops who happened to be serving in Alsace-Lorraine (XVth Army Corps) or whose Honorary Colonel-in-Chief was the Kaiser. While not impossible for a Bavarian-- and this puprorts to being a "Bavarina's" medal bar-- it is uncommon enough to be worth checking on a non-Prussian medal bar.

4) The China Medal is not in the correct position here. Despite the fact that this person was supposed to have been decorated for bravery ( 5) ) in China, there are no battle bars on the ribbon.

5) The Kriegerverdienstmedaille was not awarded for China. As Heiko said, the Militärehrenzeichen was. This is the wrong medal.

6) M1915 Austro-Hungarian Large Silver Bravery Medal was given only to ENLISTED ranks. Before 1938 this would not be in this position-- and this medal bar purports to be before 1934 since there is no Hindenburg Cross.

This medal combination PURPORTS to show us a career senior noncommissioned officer who somehow rose to officer rank during the World War-- this like ( 2) ) does not make sense for such a person

7) WHICH Luitpold Jubilee Medal is this? Not that it matters, but what is on the reverse side?

8) M1913 Bavarian XV Years Service Cross only given to noncommissioned officers. For IT to be here-- and NOT a M1906 XXIV Years Service Cross, on a REAL bar would indicate a FORMER acreer NCO who had retired, then been called back up for the World War as a Feldwebelleutnant dL...

who could not have received ( 2) ) or ( 6) ).

At least the BMV4X is a nice gold centered one.

Hello Rick Research,

thanks a lot indeed for all your time you have invested in disclaiming this Medalbar.

Upon reading up on your elaborations it makes everything very logical - where was my brain?

Well I contacted the seller - so let us see what happens next!!

I have posted the reverse side of the Luitpold medal - maybe this can give you some further indications.

According to your knowledge are there a lot of faked MVO's on the Market?

Best Regards

Ulan

please read my last post...

Hello HeikoGrusdat,

sorry but that was a doubble post - internet conection is a bit slow today,

Basically the answer has been given - I was aware about the ribbons looking more like brand new - which would not exclude a refurbishing reason of an old worn down medalbar.

Due to this issue and the 15 years NCO I restricted my bid to the individual medal value.

If the medals are real - well I have to wait until I hold them in my hands.

The part were I fully agree - therefore my asking in regards to "combination" is the 15 years NCO service cross - in contra to the MVO and Centenary medal.

On the other medals I don't really see a contradiction.

In order to receive a Centenary medal this "owner" would have had to be at least in the 70/71 war - again making the 15 years NCO misfitting.

Thanks for the help, and thanks to all others too

Regards

Ulan

This is indeed a Frankenstein fraud parts bar. The awards all look original but the ribbons and mounting are brand new.

The combination is impossible.

The value would be what all the individual awards are worth with no ribbons at all.

Hello Rick Research,

The value......, well at least that would be good news - thanks!

What is it that makes this "combination" impossible?

Regards

Ulan

Hello Gentleman,

Surely you have noticed that I am fairly new to this exiting and very professional Forum, and I am happy to be on it.

Some of you Gents, posess incredible knowledge when it comes to identifying fromer owners of Medalbars, therefore I am placing a photo of a recent purchase of mine.

Maybe it will be possible for someone to help me on identifying the former owner/wearer of this bar.

Your help is greatly appreciated

Regards

Ulan

I do not agree, and Ulan did outbid me...

Ulan, welcome to GMIC, and as Heiko said: please start a new thread for this medal bar. Thank you.

Hello saschaw,

thanks for the welcome too - and much more thanks for not pushing the price (LoL)

I just read your message in regards to moving this to a new thread - maybe one of the mods can be so nice as to do this?

Regards

Ulan

And another one:

Regards

Ulan

And another one:

There come the others: