Ulan

Hello Claudio, Thanks for your interest: However you seem to interpret far too much into this Medal bar issue. Firstly, even though I bought this medal bar I had my doubts but as I mentioned earlier on the money paid would be about the same as the individual medals put together. I communicated with the seller, he is taking it back, he wants to check on it for his own interest the money has been refunded to me great gentleman. Imagine he would have argued like others here voicing opinions, and telling me for how many decades he has been trading medals. Money gone! Secondly I am not defending this Medal bar why should I? What I am doing is questioning certain opinions forwarded by members in this forum, who have voiced out their opinions without ever forwarding a source!! Not in regards to an incorrect medal bar but to the individual statements done on behalf of the respective individual medals, I on the contra have backed my statements with sources and the only reply I get is opinions and a high nose attitude!! Especially the last three posts great and fantastic contributions, displaying immense knowledge. Where is the written historical proof that a non-Prussian was not entitled to a Centenar Medal even if not having participated in the 1870/71 war? I have provided proof that a non Prussian who wasn't even active at the time and never served in the 1870/71 war received a Centenar medal. There also seems to be incapability to understand and have knowledge about the differences and military statutes of nationals of the Deutsche Reich who served in their respective national military, in colonial troops (for Prussia) and a non Prussian participant of the Asia Brigade in 1900/01. In regards to your medal bar; why should or how can a colonial soldier wear a China ribbon with a colonial medal attached? A colonial medal is one thing and a China medal another. A quite highly decorated soldier displaying a 1914 Kriegsverdienst Kreuz? (I am not saying that he couldn't). And a MVO 4 Kl., in front of a pre war officer Ritter Kreuz MVO II Kl.? Sorry for placing all these tiring, dead horse and abrasive question marks. I am not placing my questions as a final verdict or statement - They are QUESTIONS. Claudio, I don't take opinions as a proof I read them and will check on them and then I will come up with a source to disclaim or approve of this opinion. That's it and this is the kind of forum I am looking for I don't need people to just voice personal opinions backed by; I have been collecting and researching for …… years, upon my questions. So have David Irving and many others too!! If I am regarded as a "new-bee" or "low live" in this "Gentleman"-Forum, so as not to receive appropriate backed up statements well …….. Regards Ulan

Correction/objection!! One has to differentiate between "Colonial troops" such as those who served in e.g. DSWA and those German troops that were send to China during the Boxer rebellion. .Colonies were a Reichs issue and not relegated to the states belonging to the Kaiserreich, e.g. Bavaria. Those colonial units were pure Prussian units or Prussian units composing of citizens from different states. As such a Bavarian servicemen-volunteering for serving in the Schutztruppen (Reichs/Prussian-units) would automatically be delisted from the Bavarian rank lists. Therefore no way for this "former" Bavarian to receive a KrVM. Now China was a different issue since units from other states such as from Bavaria volunteered, not to serve as Schutztruppen but only for this particular mission – or were even commandeered by the Bavarian army to join the German Asia Brigade. As such they were not delisted from the Bavarian rank list and were legible to receive a KrVM being non-Prussian troops. One of my own ancestors from Bavaria served in China as a BAVARIAN and never as a Prussian. Please refer to 4. and 6. Ostasiatisches Infanterie Regiment and its national composition http://www.boxeraufstand.com/ HeikoDruskat, In regards to the Erinnerungsmedaille: according to the Bavarian Army hand book from 1907 that I have, the following is mentioned in regards to medals being worn as "Denkzeichen" by Bavarians. f) Die Erinnerungsmedaille. Gestiftet zum Andenken an Kaiser Wilhelm den Grossen bei der Feier Seines 100 jaehrigen Geburtstages am 22.3.1897 It is therefore (the way I read it) a medal, awarded in regards to the Kaiser W.I. birthday and is not only in conjunction to having served in the 1870/71 war or even being an active service men in 1897. Whereas even the active service men is not restricted to the Prussian army but to the Deutsche Heer – which includes the non Prussian states. Another interesting example: For a non Prussian, and he wasn't even active, when he received the Erinnerungsmedaille in 1899. Karl Joseph Wilhelm Florestan Gero Crescentius Fürst von Urach Graf von Württemberg wurde am 15. Februar 1865 in Ulm als jüngerer Sohn des Wilhelm (I.) Herzog von Urach und der Florestine Herzogin von Urach geb. Prinzessin von Monaco geboren. https://www2.landesa...hp?bestand=5087 In regards to the MVO only being awarded to officers: Artikel I. Dieser Orden soll den Namen: "Militär-Verdienstorden" erhalten. Artikel II. Derselbe wird zunächst für tapfere Kriegstaten verliehen, und kann von allen dem vaterländischen Heere Angehörigen erworben werden. Auch findet die Verleihung an Angehörige anderer Armeen statt, und sind von derselben Zivilpersonen, welche sich besonders und auf hervorragende Weise für die Armee verdient gemacht haben, nicht ausgeschlossen. There is no order from the Bavarian King or government that I came across that would state that the MVO was only to be awarded to officers. Maybe you could if available provide me with such a publication. Due to everyone being legible, the Offizier Kreuz was introduced IIRC in 1905. Regards Ulan

Hello Ulieb, that is a very interesting medalbar indeed! Especially the Friedrichsorden AFAIK is a very rare piece to get - congrats I wasn't aware that the Friedrichsorden was also done in gold. Regards Ulan

Saw that medal bar too, and had some stomach flaws in regards to the DA ribbon. Agree to your post, but shouldn't the Jubilaeums Medaille show a red ribbon with green outlines? Regards Ulan

Thank God, I am not collecting medals - besides those already in my family posession. Regards Ulan

Hello HeikoGrusdat, thanks for your answer - I get your meaning now to the "foreigner" part in regards to the Kriegsverdienstmedaille/Militärehrenzeichen. BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BAVARIAN IN A BAVARIAN UNIFORM IN CHINA!! Well neither have I. Maybe Osprey is wrong - this and in some other publications I saw that the Bavarians for example serving in China, retained their national Kokarde on the Suedwester Hat. This is what makes me think that a Bavarian serving in the Imperial German Army was still listed as a Bavarian. Regards Ulan

Hello Rick Research, easy, easy - no one, and also not me is disregarding or questioning your in depth knowledge. That is why I forwarded this post of mine in this Forum and was very happy to receive a reply that shows a deep insight in this issue. I am a collector myself for 30 years, but I am certainly no expert on medals. Therefore I read your post and analysis with great interest and I am now forwarding certain questions so as to get a clearer picture out of your information. for myself - thats all. Regards Ulan

Hello HeikoGrusdat, You know as a German we take things "very" exact I wasn't aware about your statements conjunction in regards to: BUT NOT TO BAVARIAN SOLDIERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could you please still update me on your statement: Kriegsverdienstmedaille awarded to non Prussian troops, There HAS TO BE a MEZ2 (Militärehrenzeichen) Regards Ulan

Hello Phil Steele, the picture (sharpness - contrast) isn't too good. So I would refrain from stating that the medals are fake. The bar is obviously newly mounted and the ribbon displayed for the Schlesian Eagle is IMO wrong. Please have a look on a photo of a genuine (IMO) Schlesian Eagle Regards Ulan

Hello Rick Research, HeikoGrusdat BUT NOT TO BAVARIAN SOLDIERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think you are wrong on that, since Bavarian troops took part in the 1870/71 war. Also in an original Bavarian army handbook from 1907 that I have, the Centenar medal (Erinnerungs Medaille) and China medal (China Denkmuenze) are pictured under "Medals legible for Bavarian soldiers to be worn". HeikoGrusdat The Kriegerverdienstmedaille is NOT CORRECT THERE !!! There HAS TO BE a MEZ2 (Militärehrenzeichen) and not the Kriegerverdienstmedaille that was only given to foreign troops - the Bavarian soldiers in China (of course they were there - hundreds of them) were there not as soldiers of the king of bavaria but as soldiers of the IMPERIAL GERMANY - they fought in china as germans - not as bavarians !!! Sorry I don't quite get you on the Kriegsverdienstmedaille (which Kriegsverdienstmedaille?) awarded to non Prussian troops - (would be okay then). Yes the Bavarians fought amongst Imperial Troops in China, but they still maintained their national status (even on the uniform) and later returned to their original units - such as those from any other non Prussian unit. As such they would have received a Prussian Kriegsverdienstmedaille being foreign troops from Bavaria. NO ? Therefore they were entitled to wear the China Denkmuenze on their uniform. That this medal bar is a fantasy setup is obvious due to the contradiction of the Bavarian 15 years service award and wearing a Centenar (Erinnerungs Medaille) This is what disturbed me from the beginning. Besides the "plentyfull" EK II setting in front of the much higher award MVO. Take away the Centenar medal and everything would be okay. The person joined the Bavarian Army in lets say 1900. In 1914 he was a NCO received the Austria medal in 1915 and was promoted in 1915/16 to Officer and as such legible for the MVO 4 KL. and gets killed or survives - however in 1918 it is all over and therefore the rest of the Medalbar setup is correct right ? Regards Ulan - always eager to lern more

Hello Gents, today I came across 2 items offered at ebay depicting a EKI and EKII with a strange (at least to me) looking 9 of the 1914 mark. Or is it due to a reflection of the photo?. Are these originals or someones "special" order somewhere after 1918? Regards Ulan

Hello heusy68 Off course you can find genuine items in China. Let's say about one in a million. I have been for more than 30 years in Asia (China about 10), and I keep telling my friends; if you want to buy something genuine Chinese – find and buy it outside China. Unless one happens to know (I actually do) one of those grave robbers or illegal "historians". – and these guys know exactly about the value of what they find. Regards Ulan

Hello Gents, There are still Gentlemen on this planet. The seller has agreed to take back the medal bar and to refund the payment he is a bit confused himself and wants to take the medal bar to be checked up upon. So saschaw - there comes your chance I did some research too and noticed three things: 1st the Wuertemberg medal was awarded to both NCO and OFFICERS 2nd the Centenary Medal, could also be worn by those who had not been in battle before 1914. There is a picture depicting the 2nd son of Kaiser Wilhelm Eitel Friedrich wearing just that medal, even though he was born in 1883. 3rd the Austrian medal, look all the same at the back. There are two versions I found out so far, one as depicted on the posted medal bar, whilst the other version displays the name "Tautenhays" under the Emperors profile. A bit strange is that whilst the medal on the bar is very detailed "new", all others depicted are kind of rubbed off smooth so as to say. The Austria medal were also awarded to both NCO and Officers BTW, there were Bavarians who went to China along with the East Asia Brigade - I would know of three of them relegated from the 1st Bavarian Ulan Rgmt, So far, besides those brand new looking ribbons, I only found the 15 years service medal missplaced and the fact that someone would place an EK II, before an MVO, and the wrong MVO ribbon. I do not find anything wrong with the China medal - The ribbon is correct, that there is no TAKU or TIENTSIN etc. clasp on it - well, as long as the person was listed as a non administrative person he was legible to receive the Gold version - even maybe never firing a shot outside Tsingtau. Or amonst the delayed German force which for most of its men didn't see action anyway besides the punishment missions conducted after 1901 till 1907. Regards Ulan

Hello Gents, In 1786 King Friedrich II permits the members of Infantry Regt. 32 for the “Soldiers Warriors Association” to be founded - Die Militaerische Bruderschuetzenschaft was officially founded in 1788 named Kyffhäuser Soldatenbund in 1900. 1913 commemorates the 100 years introduction of the Iron Cross, as well as celebrations in regards to the Napoleonic Liberation wars – I would think that this is a Kyffhäuser associated EK I and was therefore distributed in 1913/14 amongst its members who had been formerly awarded an EK I. Same would go for those having been awarded an EK II. Anyone any ideas to the number 90? Regards Ulan

Hello Gents, thanks again for all your help and interest. Regards Ulan