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    paja

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    Posts posted by paja

      Karageorge Order with swords

      in Southern European & Balkan States

      Posted

      This seemed like a best topic for the following order from emedals.

      Combination of the Order of the Star of Karađorđe with Swords for soldiers (1914-16) and the Order of the Star of Karađorđe (without swords).

      Very interesting, perhaps even unique order.

      http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-77156600-1395057550.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-70719700-1395057577.jpg

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      Order for distingushed in work

      in Southern European & Balkan States

      Posted · Edited by paja

      Peoplе's Front Order for Devoted Labor (perhaps better translation of Орден Народног фронта за пожртвован рад) was established in 1948, number of awarded pieces is as far as I know not known, some speculate around 3000. I've seen pieces with numbers from two figures up to almost 3K so that could be true.

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      Kingdom of Serbia - Unusual 1912 Gold Bravery Medal

      in Southern European & Balkan States

      Posted

      This piece was sold couple of weeks ago on ebay. I have never seen a medal like that before, back side looks just like the front side of the Silver Medal and the front side is also very different from the ones we usually see. Rare variant, prototype or something else?

      http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-44578600-1394656552.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-95364700-1394656562.jpg

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      Order of Merit for People

      in Southern European & Balkan States

      Posted · Edited by paja

      You're welcome, thank you as well for new photos.

      That #69K from my previous reply is not from my collection, I don't remember where I got that image from, and it's IKOM not ZIN :)

      So you managed to find 2nd and 3rd class orders, same type and made by same producer with exact same number, what are the chances for that :) Very interesting indeed :)

      My wide nut ZINs.

      2nd class #1310 and 3rd classes #7657 & #19960

      http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-14194500-1394050474.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-20911300-1394050481.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-75321700-1394050488.jpg

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      Order of Merit for People

      in Southern European & Balkan States

      Posted · Edited by paja

      When it comes to 3rd grade #73K numbers on the back side are different, larger than on the orders with lower numbers (under 70K).

      Here's one example of order very close under 70K with smaller numbers and hallmark (I mentioned before that somewhere close to that number could be the border between wide and narrow nut type).

      And here's one 70K with narrower nut, larger numbers and without hallmarks which to be honest is a little bit suspicious to me because circle on the back side made by the nut is wider than the nut itself.

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/SERBIA-YUGOSLAVIA-ORDER-OF-NATIONAL-MERIT-3nd-CLASS-/321270596917?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4acd384535&nma=true&si=XFtS5HQlsIFeEO%252FOLyq7IpEKUZ4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

      http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-36279100-1394040585.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-89480600-1394040596.jpg

      Probably the same numbers were used on this ZIN with narrower nut.

      http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-54673100-1394041234.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-42495700-1394041241.jpg

      Unfortunately I don't have more pictures of orders numbered 7XK for comparison.

      Problem with the numbers is that even the same producer used different ones.

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      Order of Merit for People

      in Southern European & Balkan States

      Posted · Edited by paja

      Thanks for photos!

      I'll post couple of images of orders with similar numbers that I can find, most of them are from ebay.

      First 2nd class IKOM, wide nut, #10371 (yours 10391, probably made the same day :) )

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-YUGOSLAVIA-NATIONAL-MERIT-II-CLASS-NUMBERED-ORDERS-/171197184594?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27dc25ba52&nma=true&si=XFtS5HQlsIFeEO%252FOLyq7IpEKUZ4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

      This one is also without hallmarks...

      http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-19357500-1394036949.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-7937-0-20014000-1394036957.jpg

      Second 2nd class order #12K if I see well has hallmark just a little bit to the right from the roman numeral.

      I have pictures of some orders numbered 13, 14, 15, 16 and I have seen 17, 18, 19, 20K with hexagon hallmark...

      Unfortunately I can't find images of orders with number between those two of yours so I don't know if 11K were also without hallmark.

      Even though some of those screw-back IKOM examples do not have hallmarks I would consider them as silver and it would be a huge surprise for me if they were actually made of tombak or something similar...

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      Order of Merit for People

      in Southern European & Balkan States

      Posted

      Like shows my small experience in this thread (all screwbacks, without nut):

      IKOM hallmarked 2 kl. – 34,5g (#23K), 3 kl. – 35,9g (#101K),

      no hallmarked 2 kl. – 24,4g (#10K) 3 kl. – 23-26g (#25K,73K).

      ZIN never seen a piece with hallmarks,

      2 kl. – 24,8-25,6g (#6xx,4K) 3 kl. – 26-27,5g (3K,4K,6K).

      I apologize, I do not know how I missed this before, so you have 3 IKOM orders without hallmarks?

      I believe that those must be silver and that someone forgot to stamp them by accident or something like that.

      Could you perhaps post couple of pictures of those screw-back IKOM orders without hallmarks?

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      Order of Merit for People

      in Southern European & Balkan States

      Posted · Edited by paja

      Greetings,
      About the name, I believe it was changed twice. They first made orders with wider nuts with the inscription "ЗАВОД ЗА ИЗРАДУ НОВЧАНЦА" (ZAVOD ZA IZRADU NOVČANICA - ZIN). After that we had those narrow nuts with inscription "З.Н.Б. КОВНИЦА" ( ЗНБ stands for ЗАВОД НАРОДНЕ БАНКЕ - Latin alphabet ZNB - ZAVOD NARODNE BANKE).
      Later they switched to vertical needles, earlier orders had ZNB KOVNICA inscription and the latter ZIN KOVNICA.
      So in my opinion the order was like this
      -1. wider nut ZIN
      -2. narrower nut ZNB
      -3. vertical needle ZNB
      -4. vertical needle ZIN
      I was not able to determine when were these changes made...
      When it comes to 3rd class wide nut type numbers I've seen them mostly in the range from three figures to 20K but I've also seen some numbered 73, 74, 75K. If someone didn't change the nuts there could be a gap.
      I don't remember seeing order with narrower nut below 78K, but I also saw some numbered over 200K. But I doubt they really produced at least 120K orders of that type because they don't show up that often. When I think about it they were mostly numbered either 7X, 8XK or 18X, 19X 20XK, so there could be a gap there as well.
      So if all of this is correct and if the numbers didn't overlap it could be that the border between wide and narrow nut types is somewhere between 75 and 78K.
      I am not sure about the numbering so take all of this with reserve, I could be wrong, these are all just my speculations.
      Now about the IKOM, weights and hallmarks.
      Looks like the wide nut orders have only one hallmark, rooster in hexagon (.900 silver) and that the latter type with smaller nut has two, IKOM and rooster.
      Are all of measures you gave us without the nut? I ask because non of my orders weights 33-36 without the nut, together with a nut they wight up to 35.
      The fact is that I do not have one of those very precise scales, but I think that even mine can not be wrong for more than +-1g.
      I definitely have to get one of those pocket scales :)
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      Bosley's auction 5/3/14

      in Southern European & Balkan States

      Posted · Edited by paja

      Thanks for the tip Paul :)

      When we're talking about the Miloš did anybody notice this?

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/SERBIA-Royal-REGIMENTAL-BADGE-Milosh-the-Great-not-complete-collection-/371006573875?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item5661b70d33&nma=true&si=XFtS5HQlsIFeEO%252FOLyq7IpEKUZ4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

      Seller identified it as Serbian regimental badge but it looks like the back side of the Order of Miloš with the King Aleksandar's monogram and the year of the institution missing...

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      Order of Merit for People

      in Southern European & Balkan States

      Posted · Edited by paja

      As for the weights, unfortunately I don't have one of those precise pocket scales so I'll measure couple of orders with my digital kitchen scale :)
      -1. ZIN - wider nut
      with a nut 33g without 26g (#7K)
      35g; 28g (#19K)
      -5. IKOM - narrower nut
      34g; 30g (#93K)
      34g; 31g (#158K)
      -7. b) ZIN - vertical needle (no hallmarks, unnumbered)
      25g
      -8. a) IKOM - double horizontal needle (hallmakred, #142K)
      31g
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      Order of Merit for People

      in Southern European & Balkan States

      Posted · Edited by paja

      *SECOND TYPE - Silver star, golden fighter (1973)*
      -7. ZIN - vertical needle with inscription "ZIN KOVNICA"
      a) IKOM hallmarks on remakes, numbers also partially (or sometimes completely) visible.
      b) No hallmarks and unnumbered.
      -8. IKOM - double horizontal needle
      a) Hallmarks, high numbers, probably remakes.
      b) No hallmarks, unnumbered.
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      Order of Merit for People

      in Southern European & Balkan States

      Posted · Edited by paja

      That's something that I would also like to know... Are there ZIN orders made out of silver because I have never seen one with hallmarks that was not originally made by IKOM and then converted.

      I'll try to make a list of 3rd class general types.
      *FIRST TYPE - Golden star, silver fighter*
      -1. ZIN - wider nut with inscription "ЗАВОД ЗА ИЗРАДУ НОВЧАНИЦА"
      Never saw a piece with hallmarks.
      Numbered - the lowest numbers I saw so far had three figures.
      -2. ZNB - narrower nut with inscription "З.Н.Б. КОВНИЦА"
      Again no hallmarks.
      Numbered - higher numbers, don't remember seeing one bellow 70K.
      -3. ZNB (ZIN) - vertical needle with inscription "ZNB (or ZIN) KOVNICA"
      Hallmarks on converted IKOM pieces, the rest without them.
      Patrially (or sometimes completely) visible numbers on those converted IKOM orders, otherwise than that unnumbered. Beware, sellers sometimes use this in their favor - they claim to have low number order!
      http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2014/post-7937-0-55687500-1393002032.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2014/post-7937-0-43514600-1393002043.jpg
      -4. IKOM - wider nut with inscription ">IKOM< ZAGREB"
      -5. IKOM - narrower nuts with inscription ">IKOM< (or IKOM) ZAGREB" Couple of slightly different types of nuts.
      Almost all that I have seen were hallmarked. When it comes to not hallmarked pieces I saw just couple of them over the years and I can't say for sure that they weren't ZIN with wrong nut (don't have the photos).
      Based on my experience -4. are in range from around 10K to 70K, -5. from 70K to 200K
      http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2014/post-7937-0-75389000-1393002079.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2014/post-7937-0-22402800-1393002087.jpg
      -6. IKOM double horizontal needle
      Don't remember seeing one without hallmarks, probably remakes, higher numbers, in most cases from 120K to 160K.
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