paja

Order of the Yugoslav Grand Star

-Military Museum

-official website http://www.muzej.mod.gov.rs/en/#.USYuBaVQHgs

-wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Museum_(Belgrade)

Order of Prince Danilo I 1st grade [belonged to Ilija Garašanin]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-00463500-1361456581.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-93040500-1361456643.jpg

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Order of Saint Sava 1st Grade - Arthus Bertrand [belonged to Vojvoda Stepa Stepanović]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-69325800-1361456908.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-72217200-1361457856.jpg

Order of the White Eagle 3rd grade [belonged to General Mihailo Srećović]

Order of the White Eagle [belonged to General Jovan Belimarković]

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House and Merit Order of Peter Frederick Louis [belonged to KIng Aleksandar Obrenović]

Legion of Honor 1st grade [belonged to King Aleksandar Karađorđević]

You are most welcome Paul, there is more to come. Your remark about the Schraff medal put a smile on my face. Couple of pictures of the King and Queen for comparison.

Kind regards,

Radmilo

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-04777800-1361455510.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-91725800-1361455523.jpg

Order of Miloš the Great 3rd grade - K. Fleischacker

Order of the Cross of Takovo 2nd grade (necklace) - Anton Furst [belonged to General Jovan Mišković]

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Medal for Bravery Miloš Obilić 1851

Saint Andrew's Day Assembly 1858 - F. Muller

50th Anniversary of the 2nd Serbian Uprising 1865 - W. Pittner

Royal Wedding 1900 - A. Schraff

Royal Wedding 1922 - Rudolf Valdec

Vojvoda Živojin Mišić 1924 - Đorđe Jovanović

Conquest of Belgrade 1688 - Martin Bruner

The Battle of Senta 1697 - Georg Hautsch

Treaty of Požarevac 1718 - Martin Bruner

Greetings Gentlemen,

I am starting this topic with two goals, first to gather in one place and share with others pictures of various military related items, and other to promote our museums. Pictures are from official web sites, I hope that you will find them interesting as much as I did.

-National Museum of Serbia

-official website http://www.narodnimuzej.rs/

-wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Museum_of_Serbia

Order of the Star of Karageorge 1st grade - G.A. Scheid [belonged to Jovan Avakumović http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_Avakumovi%C4%87]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-54567500-1361406890.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-16199500-1361407574.jpg

Order of Saint Sava 1st grade - G.A. Scheid [belonged to Milenko Vesnić http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milenko_Radomar_Vesni%C4%87]

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Order of the White Eagle 1st grade - C.F. Rothe [belonged to Milenko Vesnić]

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Order of the Saints Maurice and Lazarus 1st grade - Cravanzola Successore Fratelli Borani [belonged to Milenko Vesnić]

Military order of Christ 1st grade - Frederico B. Da Costa [belonged to Milenko Vesnić]

Legion of Honor (1870-1951 type) 1st grade - Arthus Bertrand [belonged to Milenko Vesnić]

That sounds possible, but why wouldn't they give him the order itself, and thus avoid complications. There had to be a decent amount of them at the Chancellery for decorations (or wherever they kept them).

My theory is that when Karađorđević's came to power they ordered some amount of St. Sava's from Bertrand. Workshop then received "blueprints" from Obrenović period by mistake. Or maybe there was an interim period, Karađorđević's kept the decoration and ordered it from Bertrand but didn't make any changes of it's appearance at the beginning. King Peter was known as rational and modest ruler and it is quite possible that he didn't return the decorations with the monogram of a member of the rival dynasty to the workshop that made them.

But anyway this is a big surprise for me! I never came across this information before, that Bertrand also produced I type of Saint Sava!

Kind regards,

Radmilo

Yes, in many countries it is illegal to wear orders and decorations that you have not received. It is not important in what country you wear the decoration but from which country it originates. If you would wear a medal of honor that you haven't received by the congress in France you would still commit a crime. As long as you don't enter the USA it doesn't matter. But at the entry you could be arrested. But there are exceptions for example if the state in general doesn't exist anymore (for example the soviet union) or if the state has abolished the order. Then it can be legally worn by anyone since it becomes only a piece of metal. In any case it is very tasteless and disrespectful to do so.

Nicely put, couldn't agree more! Legal in some countries or not I strongly believe that behavior like that is disrespectful and wrong.

Kind regards,

Radmilo

There's one more 1st type that has been bothering me ever since I saw it. I really don't remember where I got these pictures from (ebay?), and I hope that no one will mind for putting them here. I think that we might have one more Bertrand (?) there. Compare it with the 4th Bertrand from the table above.

Kind regards,

Radmilo

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-36479500-1361205330.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-86801100-1361205345.jpg

I was thinking the same thing, but I've never heard of the 1st type being made in some French workshop... I know this sounds strange, but maybe Bertrand made orders with monogram at the beginning(?).

I hope I didn't bore everyone with these pictures from "Orders and decorations..." but they are the best guide for issues like this.

Look at the second Bertrand on the second picture, there are some similarities, especially the cap of the saint.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-01585500-1361204505.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-7937-0-98721600-1361204611.jpg

Paul,

Thanks for the picture, actually I saw this one before on OMSA.

Yes, I believe that you are correct, it looks like officer to me even though it is labeled as knight. What do you think about producer? I can't identify it...

Kind regards,

Radmilo

Igor you are most welcome.

I just now saw your new post. I'm a slow writer so I'm always caught between two replies.

If you manage to find some photos of the person who received the order and maybe find out from which year are them or even better when was he awarded we would be able to narrow your search.

As for the miniature, my personal opinion in general is that enamel repairs are not very desirable, I think that it is better to leave them as they are. There are shops that do this type of reparations, but this is not very cheap. Also I think that in the case of the miniature it is impossible to do a good job because the saint is damaged.

I have just measured mine 5th grade one and with the crown it is 66mm (without around 47mm) long and around 42mm wide, you can compare that with the dimensions of the miniature from the emedals. But if you are just starting your collection maybe it's better to go for the "normal" orders first.

Kind regards,

Radmilo

Paul,

I was in a middle of writing my reply when you posted yours, sorry for duplicating info. As for the American Numismatic Society I've tried to find that order on their site but had no luck. As far as I know first 4 grades of the I type were all made of silver and gilded, and the 5th grade was silver only without gild. When you look at the 4th and the 5th grade orders of any producer that seems to be the only difference between them, 4th class is "golden" and the 5th is "silver".

Kind regards,

Radmilo

Greetings Igor,

Order of the Saint Sava was introduced in 1883 by King Milan Obrenović. At first it was awarded to civilians only and from 1914 to military personnel as well.

The order was made by many producers but there are three main types of it.

I type 1883-1903

Obverse: Saint in red robes;

Reverse: MOI (King Milan monogram);

Producers: Rothe & Neffe, Karl Fleischhacker, Anton Furst, Jacob Leser, Georg Adam Scheid

II type 1904-1921

Obverse: Saint in red robes;

Reverse: 1883 (Year when it was instituted);

Producers: Georg Adam Scheid, Arthus Bertrand

III type 1921-1941

Obverse: Saint in green robes

Reverse: 1883

Producers: Huguenin Freres, Fran Sorlini, Griesbach & Knaus, C.F. Zimmermann

I type of the order is the rarest and the most appreciated among collectors and therefore harder to get and the most expensive.

III type is the most common (Huguenin one is pretty easy to find and not that expensive, but Sorlini is a bit rarer and the Zimmermann is the rarest).

The price also depends whether the order is accompanied by it's original box. I think that the I type orders are from gilded silver, except for the 5th class which is not gilded.

If I can help you with something else, please do not hesitate to ask.

Kind regards,

Radmilo

Alex I wasn't thinking about what might have happened with the decorations, but I'm afraid your scenario is probably not far from the truth. Serbian White Eagle with Swords 3rd grade, apart from probably being one of the most beautiful orders in general, was not awarded that many times and was very appreciated among officers. It's really a shame if it ended up in trash, I just hope some of his heirs had that much sense to at least keep the order and not to throw it away.

Maybe he was a collector who had a rather strange way of presenting pieces from his collection to the public, by wearing them

Regards,

Radmilo

Greetings Gentlemen,

I finally discovered what's that on Mr. Jackson's left breast pocket, The Royal Corps of Transport emblem!

Nice set, it looks great! Thanks for additional pictures.

Here's the 2nd, later IKOM type.

You are most welcome, and thank you for sharing this great find with us! Considering that the year is 1944 he must have got the 1st type of the decoration, the rarer one made by the Soviets. Now that you've mentioned that the order was received by a true partisan, I've heard that later in order to receive this decoration you only needed two witnesses to confirm that you were in the partisan movement from the beginning.

Kind regards,

Radmilo

Greetings,

I believe that this is a very rare document. Interesting thing is that It was issued on 20th of October 1944, the day when the capital of Yugoslavia, Belgrade was liberated thanks to Soviet Red Army!

Translation:

HEADQUARTERS

5th STRIKING DIVISION

1st proletarian corps

N(ational) L(iberation) A(rmy) of Yugoslavia

Number: 272-1944

Station (Position?), 20th October 1944

LEGITIMATION

For comrade . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

who joined partisans in the 1941 and

earned a right to wear "SPOMENICA 1941"

DEATH TO FASCISM, FREEDOM TO THE PEOPLE!

Commissioner

of the personnel department

lieutenant colonel,

End of translation.

Kind regards,

Radmilo

You are most welcome Daniele.

I started one more topic with pictures of weapons from the collection of the Historical Museum in Belgrade. Just in case someone missed it here's the link: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/54158-weapons-exibition-at-historical-museum-of-serbia/

Kind regards,

Radmilo

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your kind replies. I agree with you Paul, and I believe that after the assassination of Franz Ferdinand it was just a matter of day when will the war begin. As you noticed accepting of Austrian ultimatum would probably just prolong it for a while. From those ten points of ultimatum I find one more very interesting, Serbia was to remove from the Army and administration all of the officers and other personel from the list that was to be delivered by Austrians. And the government accepted even that.

As for the military budgets from that period, I agree that that would be very strong indicator about the intentions of great powers at that time, unfortunatelly I can't find some serious material that deals with this matter specifically.

Regards,

Radmilo

The main reason that the Balkan wars did not escalate to global conflict was the fact that the Russians refused to back the Serbs carte blanche over Durazzo as a result the Serbs backed down. By the time of the Sarajevo incident the Russian government had lost its more moderating influences and were prepared to fully prepared to mobilize against Austria (and subsequently Germany), had this not been the case it is quite likely that the Serbs would have reluctantly accepted the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum (even clause 6). Bolstered by Russian support the Serb govermment under Pasic felt more confident that they could enter a major conflict, which although would initially mean abandoning Belgrade, would eventually pan out to their advantage and therefore would achieve the goal of the Serb nationalist movement of a greater unified Serbia.

Paul

Greetings Gentlemen,

I have just recently saw this topic. Very interesting material, I have read some of the details here for the first time and for that I am thankful.

I do not have such a great knowledge like other participants in this discussion when it comes to a broader picture but couple of things that Paul wrote attracted my attention. I believe Serbia tried to do everything possible to avoid conflict with Austria. Ultimatum had ten points, lot of them were very hard and humiliating for an independent state, not only the fifth one. Their demands were deliberately formulated that way because they knew there was no chance that one state could accept them. I believe that the British Foreign Secretary said that it was the hardest ultimatum ever to be given to one state by another. But in spite of that Serbian government agreed to accept nine points, only one was rejected, with hopes that that would be enough to satisfy Austrians and thus avoid war. One more fact is very important here, Serbia just ended two wars, one more so quickly after that was surely not desirable. On the other hand with Austrians so eager to punish and destroy Serbia I believe that even if the complete ultimatum was accepted they would have found another excuse to start the war. When it comes to a Greater Serbia in December of 1914, Assembly adopted Nish Declaration, where Serbian war goals where proclaimed. Primal goal was to liberate and unify in one state all of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, so not creation of a Greater Serbia but of Yugoslavia. Personally I believe that that was one of the biggest mistakes, I always thought that a smaller Serbia was a better solution than a bigger Yugoslavia. But who knows what would then have happen with Croats and Slovenians, territory they inhabited would have probably been divided between Italy, Austria and Hungary. But enough with that I'm going off topic.

Some time ago I have read an article saying that in the period between 1910-1914 military budgets were increased in some cases drastically. British and French around 10 percent but Russian around 40, and German above 70!

Kind regards,

Radmilo

You are welcome Artan, I'm glad you find it interesting. There weren't that many items displayed, but some of them were very impressive. I especially liked dagger that belonged to Vojvoda Tankosić and Nagant revolvers.

@IrishGunner

Thanks for invitation, I will certainly take a look.

Best regards,

Radmilo

II Balkan War commemorative medal

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