harribobs

I was thinking of illustrating the "last stand" on Manchester Hill, 21st March 1918. This would include the soldiers from 16th Bn Manchester Regiment, serving in the British 30th Division. As a guy who takes his background research seriously, what sort of insignia would they be wearing at the time?

From another forum, I was told that the 16th Bn insignia was a vertical rectangle halved horizontally, top half bright yellow and the lower half dark green, worn on the left shoulder. Was this the case in March 1918?

The 30th Divisional patch was the black & white Earl of Derby (Lord Stanley) family crest, but I think this apperared later in 1918?

Any extra information would be appreciated! Thank you in advance.

try asking on the Manchester Regiment forum :rolleyes:

that's the mark of the Nagoya Arsenal btw

they do finish off a good sword quite nicely

i may have the odd one )

but 99% are in SD's or more casual....

and there's the family pictures

Oh yes....Pals battalion albums are rarely on sale these days!!!

and got some good ones as well!!

Graham,

cheers, but you misunderstand me, my interests are almost totally on the conflicts and so i've never really run across the them in red jackets

here's the 7th batt band at annual camp

and a great picture of a serjeant and his family, which we think is approx 1907

cheers

chris

You could also apply for a T.F. commission from the age of 17years old.

Graham.

it'd never happen in this day! ( he had had his first gun long before that )

Yes, I suspect that their service dress may have become a little grubby, but I believe I'm right in saying that the regulations concerning lace & button colours were changed from silver to gold, possibly as early as August 1914?

i honestly don't know, but the uniforms of the Volunteer Battalions we were discussing had disappeared in 1908

SDs were introduced in 1902 (IIRC), i haven't really come across any TF soldiers in red jackets after that

cheers

chris

Was'nt officers silver lace changed to gold in 1914 shortly after WWI started, as a recruiting aid?

shortly after the Great War started, the major change to the Manchester Regiment Territorials uniform was the dust, mud and blood of Egypt, Gallipoli and Flanders

chris

Hi Stuart

yes 15 does sound a mite too young!

i am not really sure why the 2nd VB had yellow facings, they were raised as the 6th Lancashire Rifle Volunteers and absorbed another few units along the way, but all the other VBs had white facings

i might just ask the question in our forum and see if anyone has the answer

cheers

chris

The Manchester Regiment Group

I looked at the Army Lists from 1900 to 1913 and found H. Lomax as follows -

6th Jan 1900 - Commissioned as 2nd Lieutenant in the 3rd Volunteer Battalion Cheshire Regiment

10th Sept. 1901 - Promoted to Lieutenant in the same regiment

14th May 1904 - Transferred to 2nd Volunteer Battalion Manchester Regiment as Lieutenant

I have no lists for 1907-1910 but in the list of 1911 he had moved to the 6th Volunteer battalion presumably as a result of the 1908 reorganisation.

The two stars to the shoulder cords indicated a Lieutenant from 1902, prior to that 2 stars indicated a captain.

He does not appear in the Army List of 1913.

Stuart

Hi Stuart

What actually happened in the Haldane reforms/reorganisation was that the 2nd Volunteer Battalion MR became the 6th Territorial Battalion MR, so he didn't really move battalions at all

cheers

chris

The Manchester Regiment group

how odd...you'd think if someone was looking for info on their family and was offered a photo and more information, they'd snap it up

not so it would seem................

outstanding mate!

not bad Paul

has the midland really moved you to Moscow?

cheers

chris

Chris

i am sure i can get you some more information on him and a photo as well if you like

he was actually in E coy, certainly when he volunteered anyway, in platoon 17

it would be better if you contact me through the manchester regiment group site ( on the mancs forum)

manchester regiment group

cheers

chris

i should have illustrated my last post some what and it might not have sounded so snotty!

this is a showa-to, it has the military leaning, with sakuras ( cherry blossoms) and vines featured in the designs of the swords furniture

this is an example of the Shin Gun-to, classic 1930's Army sword

this design was abandoned in 1944 ( due to lack of raw materials) and a new basic pattern was adopted

yeah i ballsed up the periods but i have never heard of Showa-shinto, i have heard of showato and have them. they comonly are stamped withe the showa kanji

Shin gun to means new war sword...not complicated, it was the name given to sword produced for the japanese army. it originated in the early 1930's, but was a throw back to the old katanas. Swords produced for the Japanese-Russian war (and prior) tended to be more european in style

Hello Harribobs,

Thank you for your message. Considering it's age and the terrible times they went through, I'm afraid I cannot see any marks on it. Normally the makers mark is on the fix pin, I guess(?) but these pin's are broken off.

best regards,

Jef

Jef, that was a reply to Pat, he thought the makers name was Irwin

see post eight for the pic

cheers

chris

Nice examples Jef

It is true that we should think of the people that earned these badges, as this is the main reason I collect, to hopefully someday be able to show and tell people the history of these items. It appears mine is a WW1 issue, but it is not a match to any you have posted. It has a maker mark of Irwin? London so if anyone knows about this maker please leave some info,

Thanks again,

Pat

i think you'll find the maker is FIRMIN

as i posted previously..the wb clasp is royal marines. Per Mare Per Terram, by sea, by land...Gibraltar is one of their earliest battle honours

the red felt under KRRC badge doesn't denote the battalion, it's standard

i think there's a few funnies in there Kev ( sorry)

"GIBRALTER" * * * * MARE PER TERRAM."

royal marines?

Thanks for theadvice Les.regards Mike.

Mike

There's a guy out in the wirral who does some polishing, he will be a good person to talk to about it.

i will dig out his name and number and get it to you

If it's a relatively cheap "Showa" or "Showa-gunto",

the term is Shin Gunto, showa is the japanese period prior to Meiji, a sword from that period is Showato

cheers

chris

Thanks for theadvice Les.regards Mike.

There's a guy out in the wirral who does some polishing, he will be a good person to talk to about it.

i will dig out his name and number and get it to you

chris

It is a Queen Vic. Crown isn’t it?

Tony

oh yes QVC for sure

looks very nice but not having any experience of the Irish regiments, i would commit myself further

chris

thanks Hunter

much appreciated