Graham Stewart

Gentlemen, Please take time to view the two videos in this Mail on Sunday news-sheet, which gives you a birdseye view of what it's like for the modern infantry in Battle. Taken fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan, with helmet mounted cameras, I think you'll agree that there is no questioning their bravery and it makes our nations "celebrity/sporting heroes" look like a bunch of overpaid tosspots. Graham. http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/a...e#StartComments

Stuart, Pleased you mentioned cavalry, as I'm almost certain that I've seen an illustration or photo of a Yeomanry unit wearing a helmet not unlike this one but plumed instead of spiked. Graham.

I'm by no means a collector/researcher of helmets, but would say don't write-it off as not being genuine, even if cobbled together as an other ranks helmet. My reasons behind this are that when dealing with uniforms/head-dress to Volunteer Rifle Corps you have to remember these Corps paid for their uniforms and badges by members subscribtion, the War Office paid for nothing other than the supply of rifles and accoutrements. It's not until 1881 and the Cardwell reforms that you find V.R.C.'s being supplied at public expense. Many Volunteer units would have used local military outfitters to supply them with uniforms and cost would have been all important, especially if the unit was not large, nor had wealthy members. As an example some years ago when visiting the D.L.I. Museum, I was shown a note by the Curator regarding the change in headress in 1881. A letter was sent from the commanding officer of the 1st Durham Fusiliers Militia, who under the 1881 reforms had become the 4th Bn, Durham L.I., to the C.O. Northumberland Light Infantry Militia: The C.O. was offering to sell their Fusilier racoon skin caps to the Northumberland Light Infantry Militia, who had become the 3rd Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers, which would replace the shako's currently being worn. The racoon skin caps would have had to have been reworked to take a socket and the red and white horse hair plume of the Northumberlands, as the Durham Fusiliers never wore one. Sadly there was no further note to tell of the outcome of this offer, but I am certain that these expensive items of headwear did infact make their way further north. I've also been looking at period photo's of Volunteer Corps and would say that in a couple of cases there are some H.S. helmets that look a little dodgy i.e. they don't have the elegence of the one we're familiar with. On another note many years ago some regimental bands decided to do away with the No.1 dress cap for bandsmen and there was yearning for the H.S. helmet to be worn. Sadly these were no longer produced, but one band, I think it was the Glosters, decided to have Policemens Helmets converted to give the band a more presentable look. I also believe the Devon & Dorsets adopted the white F.S. Helmet for their band. Anyway just a thought or two on the subject. Graham.

Stuart, I second that. Chuck uz a tinny and throw a wallaby on the barbie. Graham.

Stuart, So there you have it. At some time prior to 1880 the regular branches of the Royal Artillery changed both the colour of the band and button on the forage cap to 'yellow'. The Militia adopted dress for other ranks in line with that of the regular R.G.A., and also wore a 'yellow' band and button on their forage caps. The Volunteer Artillery to distinguish themselves from both the Regulars & Militia adopted 'scarlet' on the band and button of the forage cap. I don't think there is anymore really to add about the photo. Certainly I'm still of the opinion it's an early Volunteer Artillery Corps photo, not Regular artillery, not infantry, not a Rifle regiment and not a Volunteer Rifle Corps. Problem being there's so little information on the dress of all these individual Volunteer Corps raised in 1859/60 onwards and I think I would be correct in saying not one Corps in this movement dressed the same until 1880 when dress among them was tightened up. Graham.

[attachmentid=59075] Thanks to the kindness of Jerome and his link I've been able to add this better quality Simkin print which definately shows a yellow forage cap band being worn by a regular Royal Artilleryman. Graham.

[attachmentid=59072] Stuart, Correct on all accounts, so have attached this from an G.D.Giles print drawn 1889 of members of the Royal Artillery, clearly showing a yellow band on the forage caps of the other ranks. On top of which an extract from "Regulations for the Vounteer Force 1881" Section XX - Clothing, Accoutrements & Horse Furniture Para 684 - "In order that the several arms of the Volunteer Force may be distinguished from corresponding arms of the Regular Forces and Militia the following rules will be observed";- (a)"Artillery Volunteers will wear scarlet, and Engineer Volunteers blue cord on their tunics and braid on their frocks. Artillery Volunteers will aslo wear scarlet, and Engineers Volunteers a blue band and button on their forage caps." This is where it gets confusing, because 1880's contemporary print's clearly show the Regulars wearing 'yellow' bands on their forage caps, whereas the Volunteer Artillery were to wear scarlet. On top of which the Militia Artillery seem to have adpoted something else, as per this extract. The colour for the cap is repeated in 1901 Volunteer Reg's. "Militia Regulations 1880" Part 3 - Clothing & Necessaries Para 871 - "The men of the Royal Artillery** will wear the uniform of the pattern worn by the Garrison Brigades, and will take clothing from the Brigades as follows etc." **This is actually referring to men of the Royal Artillery who have been transferred to the permanent Militia Staff or who on discharge have opted to serve in the Militia Artillery. The fact is they are asked to wear the uniform of a pattern worn by the "Garrison Brigades", because there were three branches of the Artillery at this time - the Royal Horse Artillery, Royal Field Artillery and Royal Garrison Artillery. So did the forage caps of the R.G.A. differ from the R.F.A. at this time??? It's a question I've been trying to answer for sometime, with no clear answer. So if the Regular Artillery decided to adopt a yellow band on the forage cap as seen in the print when did they do it, or did each branch of the artillery have a different coloured band? Having said that it's quite clear that the Volunteer's are distinguishing themselves apart from the regulars with a 'scarlet' band. So I still think it could be an early Volunteer Artillery corps. Graham.

Jerome, Many thanks for your input regarding colour with this type of photograph and the French China Medal is a superb example of how two easily distinguishable colours are reversed in this photographic process. As you say it does take time to get used to it and I can remember in my early days of collecting being totally confused by it, especially with WWI photo's which showed cloth battle patches and you knew they were either yellow or light blue and were different shades in photo's. Stuart, Many thanks for your input into this post and I think you're right about the post being exhausted and until someone comes along with a similar photo from Liverpool, which is definately identified, we will be going around in circles. Thanks to all for their input and especially to Eduardo for letting us see this most unusual photo. Graham.

Stuart, Certainly can't argue over the finer points of photographic processing, as I no expert. However it's always been difficult to define the colour yellow in this particlar type of photo. As an example go to the link just given and the "On Leave - with friends and family", and the first beautiful CDV of the twin brother & sister. As you can no doubt see he's a gunner, but look at the yellow band on his forage cap, it's undistinguishable as yellow and is often mistaken as red. Like the photo of the 1st V.B., N.F. sgt posted earlier the piping, embroided title & collar facing are red, the backing to his stripes are red, the stripes in silver and the piping around the bottom of his collar yellow, whistle and chain and buttons black, uniform rifle grey. The problem is we really don't know enough about the uniform of Volunteer Artillery Corps in 1859/60, as time progresses they would gradually fall in line with regulars and militia. As far as I'm aware there are no set dress regulation for units of the Volunteer Force 1859/60, as each unit set their own. Graham.

Stuart, Check this link out regarding early photo's British units;- http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/ Graham.

[attachmentid=58857] Stuart, Sepia photography is unreliable as far as colouring goes. There's a famous series of pictures of the Lancashire Fusiliers taken on the Somme 1916 and on their steel helmets they've painted a yellow plume, but viewed in sepia they turn out dark and not light. The pouch belt in infantry regiments is perculiar to Rifle Regiments(Rifle Bde/Kings Royal Rifles) and is not a common feature of heavy infantry. You see is used extensively by Volunteer Rifle Corps post 1859/60. Photo attached is of a Sgt, 1st Vol Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers wearing a pouch belt, complete with blackened brass whistle & chain. The belt itself is of brown leather and not black. V.R.C.'s adopting a dark green Rifles pattern uniform would have worn black pouch belts. Due to the pattern of badge and darkness of the tunic in Eduardos photo I'm drawn towards an early Volunteer Artillery Corps, but not regular infantry, Rifle Regt's or a Rifle Volunteer Corps. Graham.

Thanks Eduardo, alas though nothing there to help out further. If it is a Volunteer Artillery member then he's from one of nine Volunteer Artillery Corps raised in Liverpool. They were;- 1st Lancashire Volunteer Artillery Corps formed Liverpool 16/11/1859. 4th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 5/12/1859. Formed from clerks & office personnel of Liverpool firms. H.Q. - Liverpool & London Insurance Company 6th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 20/12/1859. Disbanded 1863 7th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 21/12/1859. Absorbed by 1st Lancs V.A.C. March 1860. Reformed June 1860. H.Q. - Windsor Iron Works. Disbanded 1869. 8th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 9/1/1860. Absorbed by 1st Lancs V.A.C. March 1860. Reformed June 1860. H.Q. - Mersey Steel & Iron Company, Liverpool from 1869 and Toxteth Park 1870. 11th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 19/2/1860. Disbanded 1867 12th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 19/2/1860. H.Q. - Edge Hill, Liverpool. 14th Lancashire V.A.C. formed Liverpool 28/2/1860. Became a battery of 1st Lancs V.A.C. July 1861. Graham. P.S. Thanks for the PM

Eduardo, Yes please and if so try the waist belt too, as there was usually some form of insignia on them, although I'm surprised at the shape of it, which doesn't normally conform with British waist belt clasps. Forgot to mention there were a number of Volunteer Artillery Corps based around Liverpool at the time this photo was taken. Graham.

Eduardo & Stuart, This latest enlargement has me convinced we're looking at an artillery unit, plus the fact he's wearing a cross belt with his shelljacket, which I think would be unheard of or a rarity in infantry units. The pattern of badge is very similar to that worn by the Grenadier Guards, but they're found in whitemetal and I have one in my own badge collection. These have been credited to being worn by units of the Volunteer Artillery and although no band around the forage cap is visible, the Corps to whom this gentleman belongs, may have had a slight variation in uniform before conforming to Artillery Dress Regulations, or is invisible due to sepia photography being colour blind i.e. yellow will come out as almost black. What are your thoughts Stuart? Graham.

Eduardo, Thanks for posting the photo and I'm sorry we were unable to pin down the exact unit to whom this gentleman belonged. I think Stuart would agree that this period of time is difficult when trying to identify units as the detailing of uniforms and head-dress by historians or units themselves was patchy to say the least. This is especially so, when dealing with unit's outside of our regular army i.e. the Militia or Volunteers and I would say that possibly more research has been done in the last twenty years on the subject than ever before. Stuart, You must have one hell of a collection and must be well worth seeing. I'm spending more time researching now than ever and have an abundance of books on military subjects. Lately I've been buying copies of Kings Regulations, Militia Regulations and Regulations for the Volunteer Force mainly because one of my favourite subjects is regimental numbering. These latter volumes also have a good deal on dress and if you would like details for your archive PM me an e.mail address and I'll forward them on. Graham. P.S. You must be an extremely posh Oz to be diving into the Congac, always thought a Fosters or several would have been more up your street

[attachmentid=58584] Stuart, Sorry it's a poor illustration but here is Pte Patrick McHale, V.C., which he won during the Indian Mutiny 1857, clearly showing a new pattern badge with figure '5' below. This photo was probably taken in the U.K. after the investiture of the V.C. by H.M.Queen Victoria. I also believe also such V.C. winners were photographed and are kept in albums in the Royal Archives. Graham.

[attachmentid=58578] Stuart, On the left is the 5th Foot O/R's nine flame plain grenade(1840-55) as mentioned and on the right the officers embroided genade with '5' below. The O/R's brass grenade was later mounted with a whitemetal St.George & Dragon, with a brass '5' numeral below(1855-57). This was replaced with a die-stamped grenade in 1857. Now having re-read Wood's book it would appear the the numeral '5' was kept with this later badge and only the pattern changed. I'm sure I have an illustration somewhere which I'll post. Graham.

Stuart, When you describe badges from dress regulations and embroided badges you're talking about badges worn by officers, the sergeant major and bandmaster, all other ranks wore badges in metal i.e. brass, whitemetal or bi-metal depending on the unit. Regarding badges to the Northumberlands I have "The Fifth Fusiliers & it's Badges" by Denis Wood, probably one of the best books ever put together on a regiment and it's regimental badges as worn by officers and other ranks. To-date no other regiment has been so well represented in this type of publication. As for uniform books two of my main sources are the Fostens "The Thin Red Line", Michael Barthorp's "British Infantry Uniforms since 1660". Alright they may be modern publications but they are well illustrated giving a feel for the period, as well as being well researched as both authors had the advantage of looking at records that weren't previously available to previous uniform researchers. Barthrops in particular uses contemporary photos and then has them coloured for effect. I also have loads of other books which cover uniforms, loads of stuff from Military Modeller regarding dress, a run of the Navy & Army Illustrated and more than a 1,000 photo's of the Northumberlands. I've been involved in the hobby now since I was twelve and after forty years in it, still love researching the British Army, although concentrating on the Northumberlands. Graham.

A vey interesting photo indeed and hard to identify, but this particuler type of head-dress would not have had either of the two "glengarry" badges worn with it as shown in the two previous posts. The 5th Foot(Northumberland Fusiliers) other ranks wore a plain grenade with a nine pointed flame from 1840 - 1855, but from 1855 through to 1857 they adopted a flaming grenade mounted with St.George and the Dragon, but below that was a seperate brass numeral '5'. I think you'll find that throughout this particular period mid-1850's through to 1871, all infantry units were identified by the wearing of numerals on this form of head-dress, even those units still in the service of the East India Company. From 1857-1873 the numeral '5' was omitted and a die stamped grenade was worn, very similar to that worn from 1855-57, but whether or not other Fusilier units ditched the numerals I couldn't honestly say. What's unusual about this photo is the shell jacket being worn from the 1850's through to the 1860's, which looks darker than scarlet. If it is a Volunteer Artillery unit then it would only date from around 1860, if dated before 1860 it would have to be either Regular or Militia artillery. Graham.

Lad's, Very many thanks for your time & patience with this one, which is greatly appreciated, as I really know nothing of Police history/decorations. I've tried looking for a site dedicated to the Imperial Police, but have been unable to find one dedicated to it. Does anyone know if one exists? Graham.

Stuart, Thanks again. I was looking for confirmation in case I'd missed something, or there was a change of colour in the band, but it's now obvious that all of those cabinet photo's of Gunners in the "pill-box" forage caps, do indeed have a yellow band and not red as people tend to think, due to the dark colouring of sepia. So the lighter coloured bands would be either Militia or Volunteers. Graham.

Stuart, Many thanks for going to all that trouble looking for the correct colouring. I needed an answer in relation to a photograph of a gunner, and it's always been presumed the coloured band was red, but I kept coming across references and coloured illustrations saying "yellow". This of course would indicate that sepia photography is colour blind and we are looking at yellow bands and not red, just because of the dark appearance. If it's Norman Litchfields book on the "Volunteer Artillery", then it'll be well worth the wait Down Under. I have a copy of it myself and his "Militia Artillery" one too, again a fabulous book. Sadly he passed away a few years ago and his expertise on all things regarding Gunners, will be sorely missed. Graham.

[attachmentid=57321] Gentlemen, This lovely photo was posted on another Forum of which I'm a member, and the owner would like to identify the unit and award. Looking at the shoulder title "IP", I said it's possibly Indian Police, pre-1947, but had no idea of the rank or what the award was. Could any of our Police experts please help out here? Thanks, Graham.

[attachmentid=56221] You obviously mean this type of forage cap as worn by the A.B.Kettleby Brass Band c.1890. Due to space restriction I couldn't show the full photo, but behind the Bandmaster a lad is wearing a Royal Fusiliers badge in his forage cap. Graham

Both Bandmaster and Sergeant Majors in British Regiments at the turn of the last century were clothed as officers and as such wear silver & gold wire bullion badges or silver and gilt badges of the regiments that they serve. I've seen this badge floating about at Militaria fairs and if my memory is correct the Royal British Legion Band wear something similar, with a Victorian Crown of all things. Graham.